Episode 111
Leading Through Turbulence Expert Strategies for Business Success with Steve Huff | Biz Bites
This is a fantastic episode, we're going to hear so much about his journey as a seasoned tech entrepreneur and consultant, but also as the author of the book Life is Chaos and All is Well.
So many things to share about how to navigate chaos: the three different types that we're talking about here both we're talking about environmental external and internal. The important role that all of us play as leaders as well is being able to navigate it and balance innovation and stability within organizations.
When you look around at the world today, you'll know that chaos is everywhere and it happens on little levels In our own internal life and then it happens on big levels and sometimes people are creating it deliberately and other times we're just forced to navigate it.
Don't miss this informative episode of Biz Bites! Listen to the full episode now and access exclusive bonus content. Subscribe to our channel for more valuable insights and business tips.
***
Connect with Steve on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-huff-0103668/
Check out his website - www.winningchaos.com
Here's a discount code offering for his eBook for $3.50 (normally $4.99).
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Redeem the code on www.smashwords.com
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Transcript
Leading Through Turbulence Expert Strategies for Business
Speaker:Success with Steve Huff.
Speaker:This is a fantastic episode, we're going to hear so much about his journey
Speaker:as a seasoned tech entrepreneur and consultant, but also as the author of
Speaker:the book Life is Chaos and All is Well.
Speaker:So many things to share about how to navigate chaos the three different types
Speaker:that we're talking about here both we're talking about environmental external and
Speaker:internal the important role that all of us play as leaders as well in that being
Speaker:able to navigate it and balance innovation and stability within organizations When
Speaker:you look around at the world today, you'll know that chaos is everywhere
Speaker:and it happens on little levels In our own internal life and then it happens
Speaker:on big levels and sometimes people are creating it deliberately and other
Speaker:times we're just forced to navigate it.
Speaker:This is an episode you don't want to miss of Biz
Speaker:Bites.
Speaker:Well, hello everyone.
Speaker:Welcome to Biz Bites and we're going to talk all things chaos in and what
Speaker:that means on so many different levels.
Speaker:Uh, with my guest today, Steve.
Speaker:Welcome to the program.
Speaker:Thank you, Anthony.
Speaker:I really appreciate it.
Speaker:And I thought, I suppose the first thing we've got to do
Speaker:is set the scene a little bit.
Speaker:So do you want to introduce yourself to everybody?
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker:Uh, thanks again for having me on.
Speaker:My name is Steve Huff.
Speaker:I'm a author, consultant, speaker, uh, recovering tech entrepreneur.
Speaker:Um, I spent the last 20 years, 25 years in technology companies, primarily
Speaker:software companies, developing new software and technologies.
Speaker:Um, two years ago after COVID, um, my wife and I decided.
Speaker:Let's go ahead and do something a little bit different.
Speaker:So we left our home, which was up on the Sunshine Coast in Australia, and
Speaker:we decided to become digital nomads.
Speaker:And since that time, we've been traveling around Europe, the U. S., some back
Speaker:in Australia, where I am right now at the moment, and been doing a lot of
Speaker:speaking and working with organizations, and it's just been pretty exciting.
Speaker:Um, my new book is called life is chaos and all as well.
Speaker:And so I've been thinking and talking and, and working with folks
Speaker:around, uh, the chaos of life.
Speaker:And that's been pretty exciting.
Speaker:And isn't, uh, chaos and life, uh, synonymous with one another, particularly,
Speaker:uh, in this day and age at the moment, it just seems that that is, uh, there,
Speaker:there, there hasn't been a better time to use that word, I think for,
Speaker:at least for a long time in history.
Speaker:I think you're right.
Speaker:You know, I wake up some mornings.
Speaker:I'm like, what is going on?
Speaker:You know, I get my, my newsfeed on the phone or I talked to my wife
Speaker:or, uh, you know, I kind of read the paper and say, what is happening?
Speaker:It is a wild time to be alive.
Speaker:There's so much change.
Speaker:It's so fast.
Speaker:Uh, there's new technologies that are very exciting and present opportunities,
Speaker:but it can also be very frightening.
Speaker:And I know for myself, when I start to feel that stuff, uh, I feel
Speaker:that chaos starts to build, and then some of the classic things.
Speaker:that we all experience, kind of bubble up in my life.
Speaker:So whether it be fear and anxiety or, uh, conflict that I might be having with
Speaker:family or work, or something I'm getting angry about, or grief, or toxic people,
Speaker:or any of those kind of things, tend to bubble up when I'm, I'm not feeling, uh,
Speaker:you know, 100%, and that can then distract me, and then I go down the chaos rabbit
Speaker:hole, which can be fairly destructive.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And I think, well, let's say before we actually get into more
Speaker:detail about it, do me a favor.
Speaker:How would you describe chaos?
Speaker:Well, chaos is kind of a state of unrest.
Speaker:Uh, and it's it can be constant.
Speaker:Um, so the way I like to think about it is you wake up in the morning,
Speaker:you're ready to rock and roll.
Speaker:You're, you're, you're, you've done your, your coffee, you're ready to get going.
Speaker:And all of a sudden something hits you.
Speaker:It could be your boss calls you or you get an email or a family member and it.
Speaker:It feels like you're on a tightrope and you're just falling or about
Speaker:to fall and there's no safety net.
Speaker:So that's the way I feel when I'm in chaos.
Speaker:But chaos is a state that we all experience and the wild thing
Speaker:about it is that it's constant.
Speaker:There's constant chaos in our lives, personally, but also in the world.
Speaker:And it's exemplified by A lot of constant change and movement, and sometimes that
Speaker:change can be destructive or frightening or, uh, uncertain, and that affects
Speaker:our, everything we do, our work, our relationships, um, our family, and
Speaker:it, it can have a, a huge impact.
Speaker:So I describe it as this kind of state of uncertainty.
Speaker:It's a good way of describing it.
Speaker:And I guess there are two types, aren't there?
Speaker:There's the uncertainty that happens as a result of you making decisions, uh,
Speaker:things that happen as a result of your own personal reactions to situations.
Speaker:And then there's the unrest that's created by external forces that you can't control.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:I talk about three types of chaos.
Speaker:There's that environmental chaos, you know, which could literally be
Speaker:the environment, which is changing at an accelerated rate there, which
Speaker:could be war and, you know, disease and homelessness and the week or the
Speaker:hourly minute news cycle that bombards us with all of this information.
Speaker:And that's kind of an environmental chaos.
Speaker:But then there's external chaos and these are things that might affect us.
Speaker:So when we deal with toxic people at work, um, that has an effect on us, but
Speaker:it's kind of coming from the outside.
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Speaker:Now back to BizBytes.
Speaker:When we deal with toxic people at work, um, that has an effect on us, but
Speaker:it's kind of coming from the outside.
Speaker:And so that was what I would describe as external chaos, and
Speaker:then internal chaos could be something like, uh, fear or grief.
Speaker:And those are things that are internal, but they affect, uh,
Speaker:you know, how we behave and how we respond and how we react.
Speaker:So, um, all of those different things.
Speaker:And in my book, I mainly deal with external and internal chaos.
Speaker:Because I find that I could write 14 books on the, on what's
Speaker:happening in the world right now.
Speaker:But that really wasn't where my energy was.
Speaker:It was really trying to understand, you know, what, what do I have control over?
Speaker:What do I have power over?
Speaker:And what kind of choices can I make?
Speaker:that can give me a better outcome when I'm experiencing chaos?
Speaker:Um, how do I act authentically and with integrity when I'm
Speaker:dealing with all of this stuff?
Speaker:And, and even when I'm working with people who aren't acting
Speaker:with integrity or being authentic.
Speaker:How do I do that and maintain that?
Speaker:So those were some of the questions and then ultimately the question I was really
Speaker:struggling with Uh, and trying to resolve was how can I be in chaos, which I can
Speaker:happen even at different times of the day and yet still live my best life and
Speaker:experience profound joy and happiness and success because that's a real paradox.
Speaker:And yet I think that's they need each other.
Speaker:I really believe chaos can be a catalyst.
Speaker:For happiness and joy and success.
Speaker:Um, and so that's one of the things I was trying to reconcile when I, when I went
Speaker:down this path of, of writing the book.
Speaker:And it's really interesting that you say that.
Speaker:I had exactly that today.
Speaker:So I've had a very structured day in terms of the business otherwise.
Speaker:But in between all of that, uh, my daughter had ordered a bed frame.
Speaker:And she was all set to, uh, put that together because
Speaker:she'd got rid of the old one.
Speaker:And of course the bed frame arrived and chaos ensues because there's no
Speaker:screws or anything in the package.
Speaker:So now she has no bed, no bed to sleep on for the next, however long
Speaker:it takes for the screws to get here.
Speaker:And you can respond in different ways, can't you?
Speaker:It's, it's, it's hard because.
Speaker:That level of chaos is unsettling because where is she actually going to sleep?
Speaker:Well, she's got a mattress on the floor is what's going to have to happen.
Speaker:Um, and you can either, you know, you can either get upset about it or you
Speaker:just treat it as another adventure.
Speaker:It's a great, that's a great, in fact, I should add a chapter in the
Speaker:book, uh, creating the adventure.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Um, I just know it's a really brilliant strategy because.
Speaker:You know, I come from a family where we sort of wear all of our emotions on
Speaker:our sleeve, uh, and that means joy and happiness, but it also means anger and
Speaker:conflict, and I also love conflict.
Speaker:I mean, I just, you know, let's get into it.
Speaker:Um, I like to argue, I like to get into things, but the challenge is
Speaker:what I've learned in working with people, not only in my own family,
Speaker:but when I work in organizations, is not everybody's wired that way.
Speaker:And so What I have to focus on is not what my needs are necessarily, but what
Speaker:is the outcome that we want to achieve?
Speaker:So, particularly at work, and this is a great example with, uh, with
Speaker:the bed with your daughter, we tend to focus on what's happened to us.
Speaker:Um, you know, uh, we are having to do more with less, uh, our bosses
Speaker:continue to change what's required of us, or we have a deadline that's been
Speaker:changed, or we have to increase our revenue or decrease our expenses by
Speaker:this much in a certain amount of time.
Speaker:Uh, we have a customer who's giving us a hard time and hasn't gotten
Speaker:what they think they need or want.
Speaker:So there can be a whole range of challenges that we face every day
Speaker:at work, just like we do at home.
Speaker:But how we respond to those is really important.
Speaker:So one of the questions I like to ask myself now, rather than trying to
Speaker:get into the conflict of it, is what outcome do I want out of this situation?
Speaker:And I'll even ask the other person, what outcome do you want?
Speaker:What do you want to achieve now?
Speaker:And I do that when I'm actually in conflict and I find that the conflict
Speaker:resolves faster and we can move on to action and getting, getting
Speaker:something that works for both of us.
Speaker:And that's, that's something I've had to learn because my natural state was, Hey,
Speaker:if you want to argue, I'll argue with you.
Speaker:You know, if you want to go, then I'll go.
Speaker:Let's go.
Speaker:Let's go.
Speaker:Uh, it's.
Speaker:That's it.
Speaker:I find all of this quite fascinating because particularly, you know, you've,
Speaker:you've come from a digital space and that's probably been synonymous
Speaker:with, uh, in recent years with the whole idea of disruption, which is
Speaker:a form of creating chaos in order to achieve a particular outcome.
Speaker:And so that's one of the interesting things is, uh, As a strategic insight
Speaker:is and we're seeing it more and more.
Speaker:I mean, I think we can argue, you know, we won't won't spend any time
Speaker:talking about the presidential election, but, you know, certainly creating
Speaker:chaos is part of that strategy.
Speaker:So the question is, is that a valid strategy for business as well?
Speaker:I think it's interesting.
Speaker:You have to go back to that classic model of what the focus is of the business.
Speaker:And I, when I work with executives.
Speaker:I, I tend to spend some time on this and I, I'll draw it up on the
Speaker:whiteboard, but you know, organizations traditionally focus on four key areas.
Speaker:The first one are their systems and processes.
Speaker:So these are the, the policies, the procedures, the way we do our work.
Speaker:And those are very important.
Speaker:We also have our people.
Speaker:And, uh, our people are very important, so we have to invest in talent, we
Speaker:have to select and orient and train good staff, we have to maintain staff
Speaker:in order to achieve whatever product and service we're, we're delivering.
Speaker:But then on the other axis, we have the big money one, which is how
Speaker:do we make money or save money.
Speaker:And as a, you know, past CEO of tech companies, I had two levers.
Speaker:I could, uh, increase my revenue and I could decrease my expenses.
Speaker:That was pretty much it when it came to finances.
Speaker:I could get creative and do some investments and look at different
Speaker:things, but essentially It was all around those two core fundamental things.
Speaker:And then on the other side of that money equation is innovation.
Speaker:And what you're talking about in terms of disruption is that innovation piece.
Speaker:Coming out of a tech world, of a soft world world, I mean that was our mantra.
Speaker:It was all about break it, break it, break it.
Speaker:Because out of the, the breaking of something, and in my own life experiencing
Speaker:chaos, we find new ideas, we find new opportunities, we find new perspectives.
Speaker:I DeepSeek.
Speaker:6 million in investment came out of nowhere and has completely disrupted
Speaker:the AI world because, and look at what happened to NVIDIA's share price.
Speaker:I mean, it's just, it's crazy.
Speaker:It's a classic case of disruption.
Speaker:Now, the challenge that organizations have and executives have is we have to be able
Speaker:to focus on our systems and processes.
Speaker:Our people, our financial acuum, you know, building our our revenue
Speaker:and decrease our expenses and be able to innovate and break things.
Speaker:But naturally, we're gonna go one way a little bit further and then we have
Speaker:to sort of pull that back and balance.
Speaker:So I like to talk with executives and remind them and it's kind of like you
Speaker:need to connect these four things with.
Speaker:with, you know, elasticity so that when you go out with your innovation and you
Speaker:start breaking, you need to remember that you're pulling your financial, your
Speaker:people and your systems and processes.
Speaker:And if they're not ready and can't carry the freight, you'll break them as well.
Speaker:And if you break them, then your organization can suffer.
Speaker:As leaders, we have to be very aware that innovation is critical.
Speaker:It's vital.
Speaker:It's really, really important.
Speaker:But so is our people.
Speaker:So is our systems and processes.
Speaker:And so is, uh, you know, the ability to make money and win and be profitable.
Speaker:And that topic of innovation is a challenging one for a
Speaker:lot of businesses as well.
Speaker:And because innovation requires that ability to engage with people and to
Speaker:look at new ideas and new possibilities.
Speaker:And for in many respects for the CEO or business owner.
Speaker:To let go a little bit because there needs to be other forces that are coming in and
Speaker:saying, well, we could do this, this and this and to explore that and be an empower
Speaker:those people to give that opportunity.
Speaker:So they're kind of operating and they're in a sense creating
Speaker:some chaos within the business.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And, and they're allowing it and, and even fostering it.
Speaker:And I know that's a real struggle for, I've certainly engaged with
Speaker:a number of business leaders in the past who run a very, I guess,
Speaker:closed door style, uh, business.
Speaker:And so when outside people come in, it's thanks, but no thanks because unless
Speaker:it's my idea, it's not going to happen.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Which is.
Speaker:You see that, but, uh, the challenge with those businesses is that they don't
Speaker:sustain, they might sustain for a while, but they're not, they're not something
Speaker:that can carry the freight into the future because, you know, what happens
Speaker:when that person leaves or, you know, gets fired or passes away or whatever.
Speaker:Um, and so, but the other thing that's interesting about this is
Speaker:that different people play different roles in these organizations.
Speaker:And there are some people who are really good at innovating.
Speaker:Uh, they do like to break things, but then there are people who are
Speaker:really good at systems and processes.
Speaker:And there are some people who are really good at the financial side,
Speaker:and there are some people who are really good at the people side.
Speaker:And I think that's one of the reasons we divide our organization
Speaker:into these kind of silos.
Speaker:You know, you have your people and culture, HR, you have your finance
Speaker:guys, you have your innovation and developer people, or your tech folks, you
Speaker:have, you know, these different silos.
Speaker:Um, but the challenge is a leader has to be able to understand all of that and make
Speaker:sure that they're fostering the growth of all of that because with those different
Speaker:people are different personalities and they're oftentimes afraid of the other.
Speaker:Uh, I've worked a lot with government, uh, in Australia, I've worked a lot
Speaker:with state, local, federal government and, uh, one of my favorite customers
Speaker:to work with is local governments.
Speaker:Um, and I've worked some great local governments in, in Queensland
Speaker:and New South Wales, Victoria.
Speaker:And the reason I like working with local governments is the, the employees,
Speaker:the staff are genuinely committed to making their community better.
Speaker:And it's, it's so refreshing when you go into, you know, out, uh, you know,
Speaker:out back Queensland, a little town like Blackall, out in the middle of nowhere,
Speaker:and you meet the council staff, and they're so committed to their community.
Speaker:Um, but one of the things that happens in local government, because
Speaker:they're bureaucracies, they tend to go really hard into the paint
Speaker:in their systems and processes.
Speaker:They tend to make a lot of rules and regulations and have a lot of procedures.
Speaker:They're comfortable there.
Speaker:So innovation can be scary.
Speaker:Um, they do need to be fiscally responsible and balance their budget.
Speaker:And sometimes their people get left behind because they're focusing
Speaker:on some of these other areas.
Speaker:So good leaders have to be able to find that balance.
Speaker:And whether it's a local government or a software company or a Fortune
Speaker:100 company that I've worked with, it, it's always, uh, so the issues may be
Speaker:different in terms of their own industry.
Speaker:But that finding that balance in a chaotic world is really important
Speaker:because when chaos hits organizations, then we see wild behavior within
Speaker:this organizational framework.
Speaker:We have people acting out of bounds.
Speaker:We have politics internally.
Speaker:We have toxicity.
Speaker:We have bullying.
Speaker:We have, um, a culture oftentimes of hiding and denying and blaming others.
Speaker:And when this is what you're seeing as a leader, then you are out of balance.
Speaker:And the chaos is, is taking over one of the things I do with organizations is a
Speaker:chaos audit where we actually go through with leaders and they, they, not the
Speaker:traditional, you know, financial audit and, you know, dotting all the I's and
Speaker:crossing all the T's, but really looking at how chaos is affecting their business.
Speaker:Or their corporation or their, their entity.
Speaker:And it can be very, really revealing when you work with leaders and
Speaker:they're like, Oh my gosh, I didn't know we, we had all this going on.
Speaker:And, um, it's so easy in there because there's, there's so many things that
Speaker:impact us just as individuals, let alone impacting the business without
Speaker:going to the, you know, to the bigger levels of, of government and the like.
Speaker:But if you, even at that lower level, you know, a, a supplier, something happens
Speaker:to a supplier where they're delayed.
Speaker:And that has the flow on effect and then, you know, you're at the front line.
Speaker:So how does that, you know, does your client understand and care about the
Speaker:fact that your suppliers are letting you down and causing the delays?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:And that is a, you know, chaos is everywhere.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And this is one of the other big behaviors I've seen in working with organizations
Speaker:is this whole idea of personal responsibility and accountability.
Speaker:Because when you're, your suppliers aren't delivering and your customers
Speaker:are saying whatever and they're saying, what the hell's going on?
Speaker:You know, come on, what are you doing?
Speaker:You know, get it together.
Speaker:And you're kind of like, wait a second.
Speaker:And you don't want to blame your suppliers, but at the same time,
Speaker:so, you know, good communication, making sure they're kept informed.
Speaker:It may not be ideal.
Speaker:It may not be perfect.
Speaker:They still may get mad and they may get angry and they have a right to be.
Speaker:However, I find that when you We do communicate with them, and if you remind
Speaker:them that you have a good relationship, you've worked well, and this is a part
Speaker:of where we are right now, they'll tend to give you a little slack.
Speaker:But when we don't communicate, right, and then we start seeing the wild
Speaker:behavior and people going around and doing stuff, and then we, one of the
Speaker:things I also see is this lack of responsibility and accountability,
Speaker:where people will say it's not my fault.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:This is something that I see really increasing, um, not only in organizations,
Speaker:I think it's increasing in our society.
Speaker:And I think it's a real symptom of chaos.
Speaker:Is, um, people not owning their own behavior.
Speaker:My mom, uh, my brothers and I like to talk about this, but my mom Would say
Speaker:to us as we were kids, you know own your own shit and excuse me for anybody who
Speaker:doesn't like my language But uh, that's what she used to say to us and you know
Speaker:own your own shit, and it was all about You know this understanding since we
Speaker:were little kids that if we screw up That's ours and we got to make it right.
Speaker:We've got to take responsibility for our own actions Because when we do that,
Speaker:then we can celebrate our successes, and then we can be authentic doing that.
Speaker:Um, but if we don't, then we're allowing the chaos to come through us into our
Speaker:organizations and into our families.
Speaker:And, um, that, that's the, that's one of the things that's really stuck with me.
Speaker:And I can totally relate to that.
Speaker:And I think, and I was going to ask you about that in, in a, in
Speaker:sort of a way and saying, how much of it is it about mindset?
Speaker:Because, you know, you've been set up in that particular way because of how you
Speaker:were brought up, which is a. Shift in your mindset of how you can address something.
Speaker:So, how much is in navigating the chaos that we have around us about mindset
Speaker:and how easy is it to change that?
Speaker:Great question.
Speaker:Great question.
Speaker:So I think our mindset is huge because one of the things I explore in the books about
Speaker:wrestling with this paradox is the secret is to what you focus on is what you get.
Speaker:So when I focus on love and kindness, when I focus on gratitude.
Speaker:When I focus on my powerful choices and being authentic and even awareness, which
Speaker:is going to lead to the, the, the mindset question, then I get those results.
Speaker:When I focus on the fear, the anger, the hurt, the crap, the grief, the change,
Speaker:the things that people are doing to me.
Speaker:then that's what I'm going to get and it grows exponentially.
Speaker:So, what I've learned about mindset is, first of all, where you put your
Speaker:energy is where you get your results.
Speaker:So if my mindset is focused on chaos, then that's what I get.
Speaker:If my mindset is focused on living my best life and finding joy,
Speaker:then that's what I'm going to get.
Speaker:Now mindset, That is, is really another way to say that is our
Speaker:perspective, our outlook on life.
Speaker:Now we can change that by being, becoming more aware.
Speaker:And there's so many podcasts like yours, there's great books, there's great
Speaker:resources about raising our awareness.
Speaker:And this is about.
Speaker:Understanding that even though I see it, and I know it, and I taste it, and
Speaker:I can touch it, and it's real to me, it may not be real to someone else.
Speaker:Because they may see it, and taste it, and touch it, and feel it a different way.
Speaker:Because they have a different perspective, or they have a different mindset.
Speaker:So mindset and our awareness go hand in hand.
Speaker:So when we raise our awareness, When we travel, when we expose ourselves to
Speaker:new experiences, when we take on new challenges at work, when we educate
Speaker:ourselves, when we learn to, uh, develop new skills, when we develop ourself, our
Speaker:physical, mental, and emotional state.
Speaker:So, in the book, after each chapter, I have life hacks, and those life
Speaker:hacks revolve around, uh, mindfulness, around journaling, and around action.
Speaker:Uh, so what can you think about?
Speaker:What can you, uh, write about?
Speaker:And what can you do around this particular topic?
Speaker:So, we can change our mindset, but it takes intention, and it takes a
Speaker:willingness to raise our awareness and realize that just because I'm born this
Speaker:way, where I was born, and the time I was born with this personality, or
Speaker:this gender, or this skin color, or this life experience, that's all great.
Speaker:Good, wonderful, but that doesn't mean you can't raise your awareness,
Speaker:uh, and try to understand more things about the world, other people,
Speaker:and particularly about yourself.
Speaker:Yeah, and that's interesting because it is understanding yourself as
Speaker:well as the people that are around you and being aware of that.
Speaker:Sometimes we've become so self involved and it's part of the part of one of the
Speaker:challenges in this day and age because we're being taught to be self involved
Speaker:by social media, for example, which we're worried about how many people liked my.
Speaker:You know, my photo, my poster.
Speaker:Um, and you're grappling with that and that need as well to really actually
Speaker:be in tune to the people around you.
Speaker:Because if you're not attuned to those people, there's more chaos that's created.
Speaker:And that's where when you start to develop yourself and you start to
Speaker:wrestle with the chaos in your own life.
Speaker:One of the things that is the hardest thing, I was talking to my brother
Speaker:this morning, and we were talking about our relationships with our wives.
Speaker:And we both have wonderful wives, and they're amazing, and they've
Speaker:enriched our lives tremendously.
Speaker:But in, like all relationships, we have different personalities, we have different
Speaker:perspectives, we have different ideas.
Speaker:And, you know, my brother and his wife have been married for many, many years.
Speaker:They love each other deeply.
Speaker:But sometimes they don't see the world the same way, and sometimes they get into
Speaker:conflict, and, you know, one of the things we were talking about is letting go.
Speaker:And, and Dan was going on and talking about this, and I said, well, Dan, you
Speaker:know, what do you need to let go of?
Speaker:And he's like, oh, that's a good question.
Speaker:And I know for me, that's the hardest thing.
Speaker:So we.
Speaker:As we get into this whole journey of improving ourself, of finding
Speaker:joy, of finding love, of finding success, the ultimate kind of gotcha
Speaker:moment at the end of this for me has been, it's about letting go.
Speaker:Um, one of the things that I talk about in the book is authenticity.
Speaker:And I know for myself in my own life and as a leader.
Speaker:Being authentic means two things, uh, on a developmental level.
Speaker:It means that I need to support and listen and build trust with my
Speaker:colleagues, my co workers, my staff, my family, my friends, my loved ones.
Speaker:I also need to challenge.
Speaker:I need to hold up the mirror.
Speaker:I need to be responsible to them, but not for them.
Speaker:I need to, uh, give them feedback.
Speaker:And that's where discipline comes in.
Speaker:and discipline, discipleship, to teach.
Speaker:Uh, that's where we have an opportunity to hold up the mirror.
Speaker:Those two things are critical to authenticity.
Speaker:But the third part of that model is a bit more esoteric, and that's about
Speaker:letting go, and it's about forgiving ourselves, and forgiving others, and
Speaker:letting go of the perceptions we have, or the illusions we may have, that,
Speaker:you know This is, this is what really matters when actually it doesn't.
Speaker:And, um, you know, uh, after my, uh, first marriage ended in a, uh, messy
Speaker:divorce, I went to a Buddhist retreat for a weekend up on the Sunshine Coast.
Speaker:And I thought I knew what all this was, Tibetan Buddhism.
Speaker:You know, I know all this stuff.
Speaker:I studied it and all.
Speaker:And, um, it was a really interesting experience.
Speaker:And it was incredibly eye opening because it's all about
Speaker:letting go of these attachments.
Speaker:Which were causing my pain.
Speaker:It wasn't my ex who was causing my pain or her actions or my actions.
Speaker:It was my attachments to what was going on.
Speaker:My ideas about what marriage was.
Speaker:My ideas about what commitment was and what we should or shouldn't be doing.
Speaker:And that was a very incredible experience for me because it gave me that exposure
Speaker:to the idea that I have to let go of some of these illusions I have.
Speaker:And that was hard.
Speaker:And it is hard.
Speaker:So getting back to what you're saying.
Speaker:We look for likes.
Speaker:We look for that external praise to motivate us and make us
Speaker:feel good and to fulfill us.
Speaker:But it's not real.
Speaker:It's not fulfillment.
Speaker:That fulfillment comes from within.
Speaker:It comes from having authentic relationships and love and joy.
Speaker:And I, you know, I love getting that dopamine hit when I get a like on Facebook
Speaker:from a post or a, or a, I'm not a big Facebook person, but even on LinkedIn,
Speaker:when I put out a post and people follow it and repost it, I'm like, oh, that's great.
Speaker:And I get that dopamine hit, but the dopamine hit is not joy.
Speaker:It's just dopamine.
Speaker:And joy is a sustainable, different thing.
Speaker:And that comes from gratitude and kindness.
Speaker:Yeah, it's, it's, it's really interesting, isn't it?
Speaker:Because we have got that confused.
Speaker:I think that, that difference between, you know, is that dopamine hit joy.
Speaker:And I think a lot of people believe that it is.
Speaker:And, uh, and, and that's.
Speaker:And a reflection of where we're at.
Speaker:And it's a reflection of well of all of our very short attention
Speaker:spans that we have these days, because that moment of, and, and a
Speaker:lot of them are artificial as well.
Speaker:It's like often pondering, you know, being a big cricket fan, for example,
Speaker:you ponder the fact that why is.
Speaker:Why is 100 so much more important than 99?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And, uh, you know, and these are the milestones and things that are there.
Speaker:And we're taught that in so many different areas of life that those little
Speaker:dopamine hits, uh, what is important, but the truth is they're not really.
Speaker:No, they, they can, they can keep us going and that's great.
Speaker:Uh, but you can get your dopamine from taking a walk in the morning,
Speaker:you know, and that lasts you.
Speaker:A lot longer than, you know, doom scrolling, you know, it, it really
Speaker:does it, it has, um, and if I don't get my morning walk or I don't get
Speaker:my 10, 000 steps a day, um, uh, my, my whole world goes out of whack now.
Speaker:Um, so it is, it is, uh, it is a confusion we have, I think you're right.
Speaker:I want to talk a little bit more about this concept of chaos and, and.
Speaker:Embracing it.
Speaker:Um, because I think that's the, that's the trick here, isn't it?
Speaker:Because we don't, as much as people want to have a very structured existence,
Speaker:that we, there are too many outside influences that we cannot control.
Speaker:And, you know, whether it's your favorite TV program being cancelled and that throws
Speaker:your whole day out or whether it's, you know, something happening at work and you
Speaker:lose a client and all the reverse happens and you, you gain a client and then it
Speaker:throws the hit out for everything else because now you've got a different focus.
Speaker:All of those things can happen at any given moment.
Speaker:So how do you embrace the chaos?
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:I have a, I have a, um, a sign on my office wall.
Speaker:It says engage the chaos and I love that.
Speaker:I love the idea that we can engage it or embrace it.
Speaker:I think we have to because we can't experience true joy, true happiness,
Speaker:true success, gratitude, kindness, love unless we also experience the chaos.
Speaker:That's the paradox.
Speaker:It, it, They go hand in hand.
Speaker:So if we ignore it, or wish it'll go away, or, uh, believe that it's
Speaker:not there, then we're just denying.
Speaker:If we sort of try to engage it and play it, it'll suck us in.
Speaker:It's like when you deal with a toxic person.
Speaker:They're better at it than you.
Speaker:Okay, you will not win.
Speaker:You can't fight them in a head on fight.
Speaker:They'll win.
Speaker:So you have to learn other strategies to get a different outcome and
Speaker:leave with your worth intact.
Speaker:So, how do we embrace the chaos?
Speaker:How do we engage the chaos?
Speaker:First of all, I think we have to say, it's okay.
Speaker:It's not going to destroy me.
Speaker:It's not this evil thing.
Speaker:It's just what it is.
Speaker:So first of all, we have to recognize it.
Speaker:Uh, I tell the story, uh, to oftentimes when I'm working with groups.
Speaker:I did some, uh, counseling, uh, years ago.
Speaker:I was going through a rough period and the counselor shared with me that, you know,
Speaker:I carry this big bag of Over my shoulder.
Speaker:It's like a big sack and all my issues are in there.
Speaker:All my crap, all my broken relationships and the times I've screwed up and hurt
Speaker:people and you know, it's all there.
Speaker:The things I feel guilty about, the things that made me sad or angry
Speaker:and as I get older, it's just like, it's like this giant Santa sack
Speaker:that's, you know, carried a mile behind me filled with all this crap.
Speaker:And she said, you know, Steve, you can open that up.
Speaker:And take one of those things out and look at it.
Speaker:And acknowledge it and say, you know what, that's real.
Speaker:The chaos is real.
Speaker:I can acknowledge the chaos.
Speaker:But remember, it doesn't define you.
Speaker:It didn't create you.
Speaker:It doesn't define who you are.
Speaker:It's just a part of your journey.
Speaker:And then you can either throw it away, or you can just put it back in the sack and
Speaker:say, I'm gonna deal with it another day.
Speaker:And that's okay.
Speaker:So when we embrace the chaos, the first thing we have to do is recognize that
Speaker:we can view it as a neutral thing.
Speaker:And that's where I think This idea of mindfulness has helped me.
Speaker:You know, I used to laugh at people who meditated because I thought,
Speaker:oh, they're a bunch of hippie dippies, and, you know, whatever.
Speaker:And it just wasn't for me.
Speaker:And I kind of made fun of them and, uh, took the piss a little
Speaker:bit and thought, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:But as I've gotten older and experienced the power of that process of just spending
Speaker:some time in the morning thinking.
Speaker:Uh, getting my thoughts together, going through some guided meditation
Speaker:or doing some mindful exercises.
Speaker:It's like a, it's my ability that engage with the chaos, but it,
Speaker:it's like, it's water off my back.
Speaker:It doesn't penetrate.
Speaker:It doesn't come into my shields.
Speaker:Uh, and that's what I think is really good.
Speaker:So if you're going to engage the chaos, make sure you're,
Speaker:you're doing it on your terms.
Speaker:Because it can be powerful.
Speaker:You know, this is powerful stuff.
Speaker:Um, and it can be painful.
Speaker:So, make sure you're doing it on your terms.
Speaker:Realize that it's just there, it doesn't define you.
Speaker:Do it on your terms.
Speaker:And then when you're done, go back to the core stuff.
Speaker:You know, how have I shown gratitude today?
Speaker:What have I done to show kindness today?
Speaker:What have I done for myself?
Speaker:To love myself, to support myself, and show that to the people in my world.
Speaker:That's the, that's the ticket.
Speaker:Cause then the chaos is there, it's real, I can engage with it, it's a part
Speaker:of me, but it doesn't take over my life.
Speaker:And it's a cool thing when you get to that point.
Speaker:And I tell you what, Anthony, I have to work at it every day.
Speaker:It's not something where I wake up one morning and I go,
Speaker:Oh, I'm done now with chaos.
Speaker:It's always there.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I mean, that's the thing is, that's the beauty of it is it is always there and
Speaker:you, you, you have to keep working on it.
Speaker:Um, on all of these things.
Speaker:Uh, I'm fascinated as well.
Speaker:We've got, we've got to wrap things up shortly, but I'm, I'm
Speaker:interested to know you get a lot of speaking all over the world as well.
Speaker:What is the topic that you're interested in?
Speaker:People are most engaged with at the moment.
Speaker:I think, I think the chaos topic is a big one because we're all experiencing that.
Speaker:Um, and so when I talk to groups, whether it be a group of, you know,
Speaker:25 or 30 people or 500 plus the, the, The topics tend to be around that.
Speaker:I also tell a lot of stories, uh, when I speak.
Speaker:Because, you know, I know what I know.
Speaker:But the people around me and the experiences, and the people I've
Speaker:met, they know a lot more than I do.
Speaker:And their stories have enriched my life.
Speaker:And so I like to share not only stories from my own life, but others.
Speaker:But I think this whole idea of the question you just asked, which
Speaker:is, how do we Brace the chaos.
Speaker:How do we do that and still live our best life?
Speaker:That has been really probably one of the most relevant topics
Speaker:that that I've been talking about in the last year, particularly.
Speaker:Um, and I think it's on everybody's mind.
Speaker:You know, how do we get through the day?
Speaker:How do we not let this consume us?
Speaker:And then we have real stuff that happens.
Speaker:You know, my father died in August.
Speaker:And it was not unexpected.
Speaker:We, we knew he was dying.
Speaker:He had congestive heart failure.
Speaker:But gosh, it's hard.
Speaker:You know, it's hard stuff when you lose a family member.
Speaker:And one of the wild things about that experience was talking to my two brothers.
Speaker:And we're very different personalities.
Speaker:We come from, you know, we live in different parts of the world.
Speaker:We have different experiences.
Speaker:And we're still brothers and we have common values and some commonalities.
Speaker:But we all process that grief differently, and we dealt with it differently.
Speaker:And so that was kind of fascinating for me to watch, but
Speaker:that's the real stuff, right?
Speaker:We've all experienced that.
Speaker:Grief and loss and hurt and pain and failure and, and feelings of inadequacy
Speaker:and feelings of fear and anxiety.
Speaker:All of this stuff is with us.
Speaker:It's a part of our human experience.
Speaker:So how do we embrace with that and still have joy?
Speaker:And so I think that's the thing that I find most people are, whether they're
Speaker:doing this in work or at home or, you know, in their organizations,
Speaker:that's one of the questions they're trying to wrestle with.
Speaker:I can imagine.
Speaker:Um, it's a, it's a constant.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, uh, and, and we're all wanting to seek the answers for it.
Speaker:I, I have to get your opinion on this because just to kind of encapsulate
Speaker:all this, because we kind of framed the discussion at the beginning and
Speaker:saying, we don't get, you don't get too much into those things that are
Speaker:in environmental at the bigger level.
Speaker:But we, we, we live in an interesting world at the moment
Speaker:and there is chaos, I guess.
Speaker:And one of the things that I've observed as well, and I'm sure
Speaker:it's not unique to Australia, but certainly in Australia, where we
Speaker:know we have an election at a federal level every three years, for example,
Speaker:and in the lead up to an election.
Speaker:And immediately after it, where there's a suspicion that the government may
Speaker:change or that there may be some significant shift in whether they have a
Speaker:majority or it's a minority government, chaos tends to ensue and a lot of
Speaker:the time because things just stop.
Speaker:And that's one of the interesting responses that I see to people
Speaker:in chaos is they just freeze.
Speaker:And yet, on the other hand, That's where opportunity can present itself, isn't it?
Speaker:Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker:You know, I've loved being Australian.
Speaker:I'm an Australian citizen.
Speaker:I've been here for 25 years.
Speaker:As you know, I'm originally from the States.
Speaker:And there's so many things I love about Australia.
Speaker:Um, and I always used to sort of laugh at the politics.
Speaker:Because it's, you know, we're a small country in the global world.
Speaker:We have 25 million people.
Speaker:We have these incredible resources.
Speaker:We have all these great You know, it has been a great lifestyle.
Speaker:I think there's just a lot of power playing and toxicity and crazy stuff in
Speaker:politics now that um, is unfortunate.
Speaker:I think we see different politicians from different sides come
Speaker:together when there's a crisis.
Speaker:But, um, rarely in other opportunities.
Speaker:Yeah, I, I was invited to a panel last week Um, uh, to talk about
Speaker:the Olympics in Brisbane in 2032.
Speaker:And we had Duncan Armstrong, famous Australian swimmer, on the panel.
Speaker:And, um, a woman named Jane Segrave was the head of Queensland TAFE
Speaker:and some other great panelists.
Speaker:And it was a great discussion and it was I was trying to come to grips with how
Speaker:does Brisbane and Queensland seize on this opportunity that we have and use that
Speaker:to propel our health care and education and economy for another 50 years.
Speaker:And it was a great discussion.
Speaker:But one of the consensus from all the panelists, who were very different,
Speaker:came from different sides of politics, different walks of life, was we need
Speaker:leadership at a political level.
Speaker:from everybody to say, this is a good thing.
Speaker:Now let's come on board and stop worrying about where the
Speaker:daggum stadium is going to be.
Speaker:And let's focus on the real issues here.
Speaker:And I think what happens is we get so entrenched in arguments that trying to
Speaker:score points, trying to win an argument, and then we start behaving poorly.
Speaker:We start using toxic behavior, power plays.
Speaker:We start getting into stuff that Most people in Australia really
Speaker:don't want to put time and energy to.
Speaker:Most people in Australia want to get on with it.
Speaker:Let's get on with living our best life.
Speaker:Let's get on with engaging in really important discussions about how we can
Speaker:build capacity in our society so that we are around another thousand years.
Speaker:You know, not just another fifty or a hundred.
Speaker:And I think that's That's where I get sad sometimes and frustrated.
Speaker:But going back to your point, it's an opportunity for all of us, you
Speaker:know, to engage in this process and start asking different questions
Speaker:like, what outcome do we want?
Speaker:What do we really truly want out of this?
Speaker:Uh, are our needs being met?
Speaker:And if they are, then let's rock and roll.
Speaker:If we need to have new needs being met, then we need to let
Speaker:our leaders know what those are.
Speaker:Um, and to do that in a way that's engaging in a, in an Australian way,
Speaker:which is, yeah, we can take the, you know, we can take the piss out of each
Speaker:other a bit and do a little sledging.
Speaker:But at the end of the day, Australians have always locked
Speaker:arms and stood together.
Speaker:And I think sometimes we need to remind ourselves of that.
Speaker:Such a great point and I think it, one of the interesting things that I see
Speaker:in conflict with all of that is, is this notion that there's always points.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You alluded to it before, that there's a some mysterious point scoring,
Speaker:and you'll see it constantly in the news, particularly when referring
Speaker:to points are the, you know, the political points went this way and
Speaker:now who's keeping score and who cares.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:If we're, if, if we are focused on an outcome, then that is a much.
Speaker:Better way of, of trying to achieve that.
Speaker:And yes, we should judge people on if they say that the outcome is
Speaker:going to be X and we give them that opportunity and we don't get there.
Speaker:And there's a reasonable examination that says this was a problem.
Speaker:Then we can change course, but instead of just fighting all the way through, it's,
Speaker:it's, uh, the points really don't matter.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:And then, and then going back to that, being responsible and accountable.
Speaker:You know, if people can't hold themselves accountable and our
Speaker:election cycles, then maybe we need to put in some measures that do that.
Speaker:I don't know what that would look like, but, you know, I think, I think that
Speaker:that accountability and responsibility and authenticity, people are crying
Speaker:out for that in their leaders.
Speaker:They're crying out for it at work, crying out for it in their politicians.
Speaker:They're crying out for it in their community groups.
Speaker:We want leadership that walks the talk and their politicians.
Speaker:When it doesn't, then things go off the rails.
Speaker:And chaos wins.
Speaker:Well, hopefully not.
Speaker:Uh, and, uh, and look, we're going to remind everyone with all of
Speaker:the details, uh, of your book.
Speaker:Um, that, uh, is going to be available for people to be able to access.
Speaker:And, uh, we'll have lots of, uh, information about that, um,
Speaker:in the show notes, of course.
Speaker:But there is a discount code there for all your listeners.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:They'll be able to get a 20 percent discount off off the book if they put in
Speaker:the code that you you'll provide them.
Speaker:So that's good.
Speaker:Yeah, fantastic.
Speaker:And I think, you know, embracing the chaos.
Speaker:That's what we've, uh, that's what we've learned here.
Speaker:And, and look, and just to finish things off, um, one question that I always like
Speaker:to, uh, ask my guests is what's the aha moment that people have when they come
Speaker:to work with you that you wish more people would know about in advance?
Speaker:Well, I think there's a lot of, uh, uh, laughter at the stories,
Speaker:uh, as I mentioned that, that whole idea of, uh, remembering what
Speaker:your, your powerful choices are.
Speaker:So when things aren't going well and I'm in chaos, I can try to.
Speaker:live with what's going on.
Speaker:I can try to work the problem, fix it, make it better, or I can leave.
Speaker:But when I start hiding and denying and blaming and, and reacting
Speaker:and complaining and pissing around, then I give away my power.
Speaker:And I have very little power to begin with, so I want to use it wisely.
Speaker:And the way to make that grow in chaos is to focus on
Speaker:outcomes, to treat people well.
Speaker:Uh, and then to act the way that I say I want others to act.
Speaker:So I think that's the big thing that people come away with
Speaker:is, is owning your own shit.
Speaker:Where are my powerful choices?
Speaker:And then ultimately, how do we live in a world of love and kindness and gratitude?
Speaker:And that's important.
Speaker:Fantastic.
Speaker:Thank you so much, uh, Steve.
Speaker:I've really enjoyed this discussion.
Speaker:Yeah, me too.
Speaker:Yeah, I know.
Speaker:It's great.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Uh, life is chaos and all as well is the name of the book and of course all
Speaker:the details as we said will be in the show notes including a discount code.
Speaker:Uh, Steve, thank you so much for being an amazing guest on Biz Bites
Speaker:and really enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker:Thank you, Anthony.
Speaker:It's been a pleasure.
Speaker:Take care.
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