Episode 141

Trust is Your Leadership Superpower: Dr. Darryl Stickel Reveals the Three Core Pillars That Build Unbreakable Teams

Drawing on his decades of experience with Fortune 500 companies, Dr. Darryl Stickel, author of "Building Trust," joins today’s Biz Bites for Thought Leaders podcast episode to discuss trust as a leadership superpower. He explains why most leaders overestimate their trustworthiness and reveals the three core pillars that build unbreakable teams.

Listen now and subscribe to "Biz Bites for Thought Leaders" for more essential insights!

***

Connect with Darryl on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darryl-stickel-phd/ 

Check out their website here: https://imperfectcafe.buzzsprout.com/ 

Check out his book here: https://www.amazon.ca/Building-Trust-Exceptional-Leadership-Uncertain/dp/1637630794/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3FJEDCCA1XDBY&keywords=building+trust&qid=1654460525&sprefix=building+trust%2Caps%2C141&sr=8-1


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Transcript
Anthony Perl:

Trust is your leadership

Anthony Perl:

superpower.

Anthony Perl:

Dr. Darryl Stickel reveals

Anthony Perl:

the three core pillars that build

Anthony Perl:

unbreakable teams.

Anthony Perl:

Welcome to another powerful episode

Anthony Perl:

of Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Anthony Perl:

Today we are diving deep into

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the currency that makes or breaks

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every business relationship trust.

Anthony Perl:

Joining us is Dr.

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Darryl Stickel, who is the founder of

Anthony Perl:

Trust Unlimited, the author of the

Anthony Perl:

groundbreaking book.

Anthony Perl:

Building trust, exceptional

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leadership in an uncertain world.

Anthony Perl:

And he's also the host of

Anthony Perl:

the Imperfect Cafe podcast.

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He spent decades helping leaders

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from Fortune 500 companies right

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through to smaller businesses,

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build unshakeable trust in the most

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hostile business environments.

Anthony Perl:

In the next 50 minutes, you are

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going to discover why 95% of leaders

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overestimate their trustworthiness,

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how vulnerability actually strengthens

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your authority, and the three

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core pillars that underpin trust in

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any relationship.

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Plus, we'll explore practical levers

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you can pull to close the gap

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between how trusted you think you are.

Anthony Perl:

And how trusted you actually are.

Anthony Perl:

This is an amazing episode play.

Anthony Perl:

Please pay special attention to the way

Anthony Perl:

Darrell introduces himself as well.

Anthony Perl:

We'll reveal more as the episode goes on.

Anthony Perl:

A lot of value from this one

Anthony Perl:

for every single person in business.

Anthony Perl:

Well, hello everyone and welcome to

Anthony Perl:

another episode of Biz Bites for

Anthony Perl:

Thought Leaders, and today we are going

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to have, I know a very interesting

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discussion about trust.

Anthony Perl:

How do we build it?

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Where does it come from?

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What are the implications of it?

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So many things to unpack in

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this short word.

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That people hear all the time in

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business, but what does it really mean?

Anthony Perl:

We have, uh, I would say one

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of the foremost experts in the

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world on this topic.

Anthony Perl:

Uh, Darryl Stickel joining us.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl, welcome to the program.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Thank you so much

Anthony Perl:

for having me.

Anthony Perl:

It's a pleasure to be with you and

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with our listeners.

Anthony Perl:

And, uh, I know you're a

Anthony Perl:

podcaster as well, but I'm gonna get

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you to introduce yourself to the

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audience so everyone understands a little

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bit more about who you are and

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what you're about.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Sure.

Anthony Perl:

So I grew up in Northern Canada.

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In a small community, and

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it was isolated, kind of harsh.

Anthony Perl:

Winters minus 40 was not unusual.

Anthony Perl:

Um, and so people had to rely

Anthony Perl:

on each other.

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And so I got a sense that if I

Anthony Perl:

could be helpful, I should, and growing

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up there, uh, you developed a strong

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sense of community.

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When I was 17, I was playing hockey

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and I got attacked by a fan with a

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club, um, shattered my helmet, knocked

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me unconscious.

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I apparently stopped breathing three

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times on the way to the hospital.

Anthony Perl:

Wow.

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And you know, when I was growing up,

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I, I had a. Retinal disorder, hereditary

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retinal disorder.

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I knew I was gonna eventually

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lose my sight, that I'd become

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legally blind.

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My intent had been to think for a

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living, and now all of a sudden,

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here I am, I can't think I've got

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the attention span of a fruit fly.

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And so there was this long stretch

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of helplessness and hopelessness,

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and what it provoked in me was

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a really strong sense of empathy.

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And it took me a couple of years

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to really recover.

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But what I did.

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Strange things started happening.

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So I, I would be sitting on a bus and

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a complete stranger would come up and

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sit next to me and say, I'm really

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having a hard time.

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And people would open up

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to me quickly.

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And I, I wanted to understand why that

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was happening and it felt like maybe

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I was destined for a life working as a

Anthony Perl:

clinical counselor.

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So I started working with street kids

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and families in crisis and troubled

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teens and working on crisis lines.

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To further hone those skills and

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gain a better understanding

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of what was going on for me.

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And I, I came this close to

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becoming a clinical psychologist

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and I realized that, you know,

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it would, it had taken these people

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a long time to get where they were.

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It was gonna take a long time for

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them to find their way out of it,

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and then it would drive me crazy.

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Um, and so I transitioned.

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It ended up in public

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administration doing a master's degree

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in public admin, working in native

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land claims in British Columbia.

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And they would ask me these deep

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philosophical questions like, what

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is self-government?

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Or What will the province look like

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50 years after claims are settled?

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The last question they asked me

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was, how do we convince a group

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of people we've shafted for over

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a hundred years?

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They should trust us.

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And man, that just seemed like such

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a good question.

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Hmm.

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And it gets to the heart of these

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long-term disputes, why they're so

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resilient, even when they're not

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doing anyone any good anymore.

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Um, so I went to Duke and wrote my

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doctoral thesis on building

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trust in hostile environments.

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And I had two incredible academics

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on my committee who were both

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experts on trust.

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And they sat me down after I finished

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and they said, you know, when you

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first came to us.

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We had a conversation

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with each other.

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We said, it's too big, too

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complicated.

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He's never gonna solve it.

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We'll give him six months and then

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he'll come crawling back and that'll

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be his thesis.

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We'll let him just shave off a little

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piece of this.

Anthony Perl:

Anthony Perl: Mm-hmm.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: They said six

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months in, you're so far beyond us.

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We couldn't help anymore.

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All we could do is sit and watch.

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Said here we're a few years

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later, we think you've solved it.

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So I left academia, went

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into consulting.

Anthony Perl:

I got hired by McKinsey Company,

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a big management consulting firm.

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Now all of a sudden, I'm getting

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a chance to apply these concepts

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that I've theorized about and they

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recognized, they said, wow, you got

Anthony Perl:

great client hands.

Anthony Perl:

Let's send you to the worst

Anthony Perl:

places possible.

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You know, so places where there had been

Anthony Perl:

strikes or hostile takeovers, they

Anthony Perl:

would send me in to work with clients.

Anthony Perl:

And I'm getting a chance to apply

Anthony Perl:

these concepts and having success doing

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it, and then I get injured on the way

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to a client site.

Anthony Perl:

The car on me rear ends

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another vehicle.

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I end up with a really bad

Anthony Perl:

concussion again, and I can't

Anthony Perl:

work 80 hours a week anymore.

Anthony Perl:

And so I start my own little company

Anthony Perl:

called Trust Unlimited, and I

Anthony Perl:

start helping people better understand

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what trust is, how it works, and

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how to build it.

Anthony Perl:

And over the next 20 years, my

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learning curve is almost vertical.

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As I'm applying these concepts,

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formulating better ideas, learning

Anthony Perl:

how to help people understand the

Anthony Perl:

concepts better and how to prob problem

Anthony Perl:

solve with them.

Anthony Perl:

So that's kind of brings us

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up to today.

Anthony Perl:

That is quite a journey.

Anthony Perl:

Yeah.

Anthony Perl:

Uh, I love, I I love that.

Anthony Perl:

You know what's fascinating to me as

Anthony Perl:

I was sitting there listening to you and

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I, I asked the same question of everyone

Anthony Perl:

coming on the show to introduce

Anthony Perl:

themselves, and we get a variation of

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people that give me the 15 second

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version to what you did, to the more

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elaborate one and the interesting

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thing about what you've just.

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Given us is a story, a journey,

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uh, of your life and where you've

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got to, and you can feel already,

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and I, I, it's not a matter of,

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um, what you feel because there's a

Anthony Perl:

mixture of different things in there.

Anthony Perl:

There's admiration, there's empathy,

Anthony Perl:

there's lots of different things

Anthony Perl:

that are going on.

Anthony Perl:

But immediately with that, what's

Anthony Perl:

interesting to me is, is I feel

Anthony Perl:

like I wanna trust you already.

Anthony Perl:

How much.

Anthony Perl:

Of building trust is emotional.

Darryl Stickel:

It's a really big part.

Darryl Stickel:

And man, that's good insight because

Darryl Stickel:

that was the core of my thesis.

Darryl Stickel:

One of the things that really

Darryl Stickel:

differentiated most of the 99%

Darryl Stickel:

of the trust research treats

Darryl Stickel:

people like they're rational actors.

Darryl Stickel:

And you've met people

Darryl Stickel:

before, right?

Darryl Stickel:

Hmm.

Darryl Stickel:

We're not always rational and, and

Darryl Stickel:

the more emotional we become, the less

Darryl Stickel:

rational we are.

Darryl Stickel:

And so for me, I, I developed a, a full

Darryl Stickel:

fledge model for how the trust decision

Darryl Stickel:

works and how we can actually take

Darryl Stickel:

practical applied steps to build it.

Darryl Stickel:

But in the heart of this whole thing

Darryl Stickel:

is our emotional states, whether

Darryl Stickel:

we like or dislike somebody else.

Darryl Stickel:

'cause if we like people, we have

Darryl Stickel:

this positive story about them.

Darryl Stickel:

We want to find reasons

Darryl Stickel:

to trust them.

Darryl Stickel:

We're more likely to trust them,

Darryl Stickel:

we're more likely to evaluate

Darryl Stickel:

the outcomes we have with them

Darryl Stickel:

positively, and that makes us like

Darryl Stickel:

them even more.

Darryl Stickel:

So.

Darryl Stickel:

It creates these virtuous cycles.

Darryl Stickel:

Anthony Perl: It's, it's really

Darryl Stickel:

fascinating to me that.

Darryl Stickel:

The, you know, we, we live in these two

Darryl Stickel:

sides of our brain.

Darryl Stickel:

In fact, we probably live most of our

Darryl Stickel:

time in our, in our very rational

Darryl Stickel:

side of the brain.

Darryl Stickel:

Mm-hmm.

Darryl Stickel:

Yet from a marketing perspective, we

Darryl Stickel:

always say that, uh, 90% of decision

Darryl Stickel:

making is, uh, is, you know, is the

Darryl Stickel:

emotional side and 10% is justifying

Darryl Stickel:

the emotion.

Darryl Stickel:

So, you know, with that in

Darryl Stickel:

mind is that.

Darryl Stickel:

The key to the formula for trust

Darryl Stickel:

is, is it, is it really building that

Darryl Stickel:

emotional connection first before you can

Darryl Stickel:

start to rationalize it in some way?

Darryl Stickel:

Darryl Stickel: Well, for me it's

Darryl Stickel:

about resetting those emotional

Darryl Stickel:

states if they're negative, right?

Darryl Stickel:

And, and we can start a positive

Darryl Stickel:

cycle fairly easily by finding

Darryl Stickel:

things that we like about the other

Darryl Stickel:

person, having a positive narrative

Darryl Stickel:

about them, a positive story.

Darryl Stickel:

When it comes to my sons, I have

Darryl Stickel:

a relentlessly positive story about

Darryl Stickel:

them, which means that new information

Darryl Stickel:

that comes to me, I interpret it through

Darryl Stickel:

that lens, right?

Darryl Stickel:

And so when they were younger and

Darryl Stickel:

they were in school and their teachers

Darryl Stickel:

would say, yeah, he's misbehaving.

Darryl Stickel:

I would start to get curious, what's

Darryl Stickel:

provoking that?

Darryl Stickel:

You know, because I'm not prepared

Darryl Stickel:

to just blame him and say he's

Darryl Stickel:

dysfunctional.

Darryl Stickel:

I'm more curious about what are

Darryl Stickel:

the settings, what are the

Darryl Stickel:

triggering events?

Darryl Stickel:

What's the environment that

Darryl Stickel:

you've created that's bringing

Darryl Stickel:

that out in him?

Darryl Stickel:

Because I don't see it.

Darryl Stickel:

Mm-hmm.

Darryl Stickel:

So, but I think for me, we just need to

Darryl Stickel:

be aware that these negative emotions,

Darryl Stickel:

if they're really strong, are gonna

Darryl Stickel:

trump any kind rational approach

Darryl Stickel:

that we take to try to build trust

Darryl Stickel:

with somebody else.

Darryl Stickel:

We need to at least be aware of them and

Darryl Stickel:

try to reset those emotional states.

Darryl Stickel:

First, if they exist.

Anthony Perl:

It's really intriguing

Anthony Perl:

when you talk about some of these areas,

Anthony Perl:

because we do have a lens that is.

Anthony Perl:

What our life is, right?

Anthony Perl:

The, our experiences and things

Anthony Perl:

that we've been through, right?

Anthony Perl:

It is going to impact our ability

Anthony Perl:

to trust someone we've just met,

Anthony Perl:

for example, right?

Anthony Perl:

Because, um, I'm gonna give

Anthony Perl:

you an example.

Anthony Perl:

Um, I was brought up in a time when

Anthony Perl:

very few people had tattoos, okay?

Anthony Perl:

And so you were brought up with a

Anthony Perl:

lens that if they had tattoos, they

Anthony Perl:

were probably from the wrong side

Anthony Perl:

of the street.

Anthony Perl:

Now fast forward to, uh, Australia.

Anthony Perl:

Now I watch a lot of football.

Anthony Perl:

Um, there's barely a player that doesn't

Anthony Perl:

have tattoos.

Anthony Perl:

The whole, um, you know, it used

Anthony Perl:

to be that you couldn't get a job

Anthony Perl:

if you had them.

Anthony Perl:

You had to cover them up,

Anthony Perl:

um, all those sorts of things.

Anthony Perl:

And that's completely changed.

Anthony Perl:

So it's very interesting how

Anthony Perl:

things change, but it's interesting.

Anthony Perl:

But I was very aware when that transition

Anthony Perl:

started happening in society, that became

Anthony Perl:

more common, became very aware that

Anthony Perl:

I had this lens.

Anthony Perl:

That said, don't trust these people.

Anthony Perl:

It wasn't a rational one.

Anthony Perl:

Right.

Anthony Perl:

Um, you know, it was just brought

Anthony Perl:

up on, you know, people don't have

Anthony Perl:

tattoos and, and therefore if they

Anthony Perl:

do, they must be this kind of person.

Anthony Perl:

And it's interesting how those things

Anthony Perl:

not only, you know, I became

Anthony Perl:

very self-aware of it, but also

Anthony Perl:

how it can change when you are aware

Anthony Perl:

how it can change the way you think

Anthony Perl:

and how indeed.

Anthony Perl:

Those things change.

Anthony Perl:

I mean, I, I suppose one other obvious

Anthony Perl:

example is, you know, it wasn't

Anthony Perl:

that long ago that people would say,

Anthony Perl:

don't trust anything where you have

Anthony Perl:

to buy it online.

Anthony Perl:

Right?

Anthony Perl:

We, you know, don't, don't, don't trust

Anthony Perl:

putting your credit card down online.

Anthony Perl:

Well, now you would argue that

Anthony Perl:

it's probably more trustworthy to do,

Anthony Perl:

do it in some online secure environments

Anthony Perl:

than it might be to do it in person.

Anthony Perl:

So again.

Anthony Perl:

Things change.

Anthony Perl:

So how do you accommodate that

Anthony Perl:

and how important is being self-aware

Anthony Perl:

and, and noticing those changes

Anthony Perl:

that happen?

Darryl Stickel:

Wow.

Darryl Stickel:

So you're opening up all kinds of

Darryl Stickel:

things for me here.

Darryl Stickel:

And it, it's gotta be because

Darryl Stickel:

you're from down under, because

Darryl Stickel:

you're taking me in reverse order.

Darryl Stickel:

Through what I normally talk about,

Darryl Stickel:

um, context is I hope that's a good

Anthony Perl:

thing.

Anthony Perl:

Make it more fun.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Yeah, absolutely.

Anthony Perl:

So you're talking about context in,

Anthony Perl:

in some respects, which is sort of the

Anthony Perl:

formal and informal rules of the game.

Anthony Perl:

Right.

Anthony Perl:

And context is one of the other pieces

Anthony Perl:

that I added in my doctoral thesis

Anthony Perl:

because I needed a way to explain

Anthony Perl:

why we trust or mistrust some people

Anthony Perl:

without knowing anything about them.

Anthony Perl:

And overwhelmingly the literature

Anthony Perl:

talks about trust from an individual

Anthony Perl:

perspective, but it ignores the

Anthony Perl:

elements of context.

Anthony Perl:

And a lot of times what I would do

Anthony Perl:

is, I would say to people, if you

Anthony Perl:

could be anywhere with anyone doing

Anthony Perl:

anything right now, how many of you

Anthony Perl:

would be sitting here listening

Anthony Perl:

to me speak?

Anthony Perl:

And I, I, I had to stop doing

Anthony Perl:

that 'cause it wasn't good for

Anthony Perl:

my self-esteem.

Anthony Perl:

But, you know, because the question

Anthony Perl:

becomes, well then why are you here?

Anthony Perl:

And they're there because it's their

Anthony Perl:

job or they've got something

Anthony Perl:

else on the go, or they're traveling

Anthony Perl:

somewhere and they're listening

Anthony Perl:

to the podcast

Anthony Perl:

context explains why we go into a

Anthony Perl:

doctor's office and the doctor

Anthony Perl:

says, take off your clothes.

Anthony Perl:

And we do.

Anthony Perl:

Right?

Anthony Perl:

I've tried that.

Anthony Perl:

In other places it doesn't work.

Anthony Perl:

And if we change the context, we

Anthony Perl:

could have the same two people

Anthony Perl:

with the exact same dialogue, but move

Anthony Perl:

them from a doctor's office to a gas

Anthony Perl:

station restroom.

Anthony Perl:

And it goes from credible to creepy

Anthony Perl:

in a heartbeat.

Anthony Perl:

Yep.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Right.

Anthony Perl:

And so what you're referring

Anthony Perl:

to is the fact that perceptions

Anthony Perl:

and values have changed over time.

Anthony Perl:

Norms and expectations have

Anthony Perl:

changed over time.

Anthony Perl:

And you're right, a lot of times

Anthony Perl:

we're not even aware of our own

Anthony Perl:

context until we start to become

Anthony Perl:

thoughtful about it.

Anthony Perl:

And one of the exercises I got a

Anthony Perl:

of senior executives to do was.

Anthony Perl:

I sit down and I want you to think

Anthony Perl:

about how the CEO is constrained and

Anthony Perl:

each of the VPs is gonna write down

Anthony Perl:

how they think.

Anthony Perl:

The CEO is constrained by

Anthony Perl:

the context.

Anthony Perl:

And then I want the CEO to do the

Anthony Perl:

same for the for, for themselves.

Anthony Perl:

And at the end, we started going

Anthony Perl:

through and, and having a

Anthony Perl:

conversation.

Anthony Perl:

What have you written down?

Anthony Perl:

What did, what were the

Anthony Perl:

takeaways for you?

Anthony Perl:

And.

Anthony Perl:

It provoked this really interesting

Anthony Perl:

conversation because they had different

Anthony Perl:

perspectives than the CEO did.

Anthony Perl:

I've done the same thing with a

Anthony Perl:

captain on a naval vessel when I was

Anthony Perl:

doing some training with the military.

Anthony Perl:

You know, we have very different

Anthony Perl:

understanding is how of how each of

Anthony Perl:

us is constrained and making that

Anthony Perl:

surfacing, that making people

Anthony Perl:

more aware of it is a great way

Anthony Perl:

to help reduce uncertainty because.

Anthony Perl:

For me, trust is the willingness to make

Anthony Perl:

yourself vulnerable when you can't

Anthony Perl:

completely predict how someone else

Anthony Perl:

is gonna behave.

Anthony Perl:

And that definition includes elements

Anthony Perl:

of vulnerability and uncertainty.

Anthony Perl:

And so in my model, it's uncertainty

Anthony Perl:

times, vulnerability gives us a level

Anthony Perl:

of perceived risk, and we each

Anthony Perl:

have a threshold of risk that we

Anthony Perl:

can tolerate.

Anthony Perl:

If we go beyond that threshold,

Anthony Perl:

we don't trust.

Anthony Perl:

If we're beneath it, then we do.

Anthony Perl:

So what that means is that if

Anthony Perl:

uncertainty is really high, then

Anthony Perl:

vulnerability has to be low to

Anthony Perl:

still fit beneath that threshold.

Anthony Perl:

And as our relationships

Anthony Perl:

get deeper, the uncertainty goes

Anthony Perl:

down and the range of vulnerability

Anthony Perl:

we can tolerate cts to grow.

Anthony Perl:

And so if we want to build trust,

Anthony Perl:

it's actually fairly simple.

Anthony Perl:

It's where does uncertainty come

Anthony Perl:

from and how do we take steps

Anthony Perl:

to reduce it?

Anthony Perl:

And where does vulnerability come

Anthony Perl:

from and how do we take steps to

Anthony Perl:

help the other person manage it?

Anthony Perl:

And so uncertainty comes from us as

Anthony Perl:

individuals, and it comes from

Anthony Perl:

the context we're embedded in, and

Anthony Perl:

the better able we are to describe

Anthony Perl:

or outline our context, the less

Anthony Perl:

uncertainty there is for somebody else,

Anthony Perl:

the easier it is for them to trust us.

Anthony Perl:

Anthony Perl: Interesting.

Anthony Perl:

I I, so with, with all of that in mind,

Anthony Perl:

and, and, uh, I'm, I'm interested as

Anthony Perl:

to whether the, the introduction

Anthony Perl:

that you gave.

Anthony Perl:

Is part partly because of the

Anthony Perl:

formula that you have in mind,

Anthony Perl:

because you were quite vulnerable

Anthony Perl:

in what you, um, you know, gave

Anthony Perl:

over about, uh, the journey that

Anthony Perl:

you've had in your life Because it

Anthony Perl:

wasn't a, it wasn't a, you didn't

Anthony Perl:

gimme a resume.

Anthony Perl:

Put it that way.

Anthony Perl:

You gave me, you gave me a story

Anthony Perl:

in which you were quite vulnerable

Anthony Perl:

about, you know, having been, um,

Anthony Perl:

you know, on death door at one point.

Anthony Perl:

Um, you know, and, and other things

Anthony Perl:

that have happened to you throughout

Anthony Perl:

your life.

Anthony Perl:

Is that, um, a deliberate strategy

Anthony Perl:

to build trust or is that just something

Anthony Perl:

that's become a reaction that you

Anthony Perl:

know to everything that you've done?

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: So partly I try

Anthony Perl:

to live the model.

Anthony Perl:

Um, I use it when I raise my sons.

Anthony Perl:

I use it when I teach.

Anthony Perl:

Um, and I, until you just asked me

Anthony Perl:

that question, I hadn't thought about

Anthony Perl:

the reason I tell the story, but part

Anthony Perl:

of, you're right, part of what I do

Anthony Perl:

is I make myself vulnerable and

Anthony Perl:

that initiates a norm of reciprocity

Anthony Perl:

in others.

Anthony Perl:

They feel like if Darryl's willing

Anthony Perl:

to be vulnerable with me, that it's

Anthony Perl:

okay for me to be vulnerable back.

Anthony Perl:

And partly I get a lot of practice.

Anthony Perl:

I'm legally blind and my guide

Anthony Perl:

dog, Drake, and I wander the world

Anthony Perl:

trying to make it a better place.

Anthony Perl:

I need help often.

Anthony Perl:

And I have realized that it doesn't make

Anthony Perl:

me less than that.

Anthony Perl:

That there is the potential for

Anthony Perl:

people to take advantage of me.

Anthony Perl:

Of my vision and the the

Anthony Perl:

challenges I have,

Anthony Perl:

but I've been overwhelmed at how

Anthony Perl:

wonderful people are and how willing

Anthony Perl:

to help they are.

Anthony Perl:

And I've had really positive

Anthony Perl:

experiences with being vulnerable

Anthony Perl:

and it may be part of what makes

Anthony Perl:

people comfortable being vulnerable

Anthony Perl:

back to me.

Anthony Perl:

It is interesting,

Anthony Perl:

isn't it?

Anthony Perl:

Because you are, as you say, you are

Anthony Perl:

being forced to, particularly if you

Anthony Perl:

are, you know, in a, in a situation

Anthony Perl:

outside where you've got your D guide

Anthony Perl:

dog with you, it's very obvious what

Anthony Perl:

your vulnerability is, right?

Anthony Perl:

And wearing that on your sleeve is

Anthony Perl:

a difficult thing, but you don't

Anthony Perl:

have a choice and.

Anthony Perl:

It's interesting though that today

Anthony Perl:

people are generally speaking more

Anthony Perl:

and more guarded, aren't they?

Anthony Perl:

I mean, yeah.

Anthony Perl:

And, and I find this an interesting

Anthony Perl:

dilemma in business and I, I, I remember

Anthony Perl:

back even to the, I think to the

Anthony Perl:

very first episode of this podcast,

Anthony Perl:

uh, for those that wanna go back, we

Anthony Perl:

had a discussion with, um, with

Anthony Perl:

Karen at the time and talking about

Anthony Perl:

this idea that.

Anthony Perl:

Is outdated notion that it used to be

Anthony Perl:

when you rocked up to business that

Anthony Perl:

you had to leave your personal

Anthony Perl:

life outside the door, and that it

Anthony Perl:

was all focused on business until

Anthony Perl:

you walk back in.

Anthony Perl:

Nowadays that attitude seems

Anthony Perl:

to be that you, you know, the

Anthony Perl:

recognition that you carry it with you.

Anthony Perl:

Um, and particularly if people work

Anthony Perl:

from home, but yet the guards

Anthony Perl:

are very much up.

Anthony Perl:

There's, you know, AI I think

Anthony Perl:

is making things more and more.

Anthony Perl:

Um, you know, polished and

Anthony Perl:

putting more and more barriers

Anthony Perl:

up and trying to separate that.

Anthony Perl:

And so that, allowing that

Anthony Perl:

vulnerability, it's becoming

Anthony Perl:

challenging.

Anthony Perl:

It is.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Yeah.

Anthony Perl:

And you're bang on.

Anthony Perl:

So you, your instincts are

Anthony Perl:

so good around this stuff.

Anthony Perl:

Uh, you're doing a magnificent

Anthony Perl:

job, by the way.

Anthony Perl:

Um, thank you.

Anthony Perl:

When I think about, you know, trust

Anthony Perl:

is at some of the lowest levels we've

Anthony Perl:

ever measured.

Anthony Perl:

If we think about it using the model

Anthony Perl:

I described before, our vulnerability

Anthony Perl:

certainly hasn't gone down.

Anthony Perl:

You know, we feel just as vulnerable

Anthony Perl:

as we used to, or maybe a little

Anthony Perl:

more so, but our uncertainty is

Anthony Perl:

bouncing all over the place, right?

Anthony Perl:

We've seen pandemics,

Anthony Perl:

we've seen.

Anthony Perl:

Changes in norms and values.

Anthony Perl:

We see technological changes at an

Anthony Perl:

increasing pace.

Anthony Perl:

We see political instability and

Anthony Perl:

and conflict around the world.

Anthony Perl:

These massive fluctuations and

Anthony Perl:

uncertainty make us incredibly

Anthony Perl:

uncomfortable, and so the ask,

Anthony Perl:

asking you to be just a little

Anthony Perl:

more vulnerable to me by trusting

Anthony Perl:

me is harder than it's ever been.

Anthony Perl:

And this is part of the, you know, I've

Anthony Perl:

started working on a project called

Anthony Perl:

the Aspiring Men's Program because

Anthony Perl:

the statistics for young men right

Anthony Perl:

now are horrific.

Anthony Perl:

They, they make up 80% of the

Anthony Perl:

suicide rate.

Anthony Perl:

Um, they're trending down in terms of,

Anthony Perl:

uh, educational outcomes, mental

Anthony Perl:

health outcomes, addiction.

Anthony Perl:

You know, they're, they're really in a

Anthony Perl:

time of crisis and they are struggling

Anthony Perl:

to be vulnerable in a profound way.

Anthony Perl:

Hmm.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: They are the

Anthony Perl:

hardest group to reach because they

Anthony Perl:

don't ask for help and they don't

Anthony Perl:

send signals.

Anthony Perl:

They, they are reluctant to

Anthony Perl:

accept help.

Anthony Perl:

They isolate.

Anthony Perl:

Um, and so you're right, it's becoming

Anthony Perl:

harder and harder for us to be.

Anthony Perl:

Vulnerable with one another because it

Anthony Perl:

feels like we're raw and already

Anthony Perl:

over overexposed.

Anthony Perl:

And it's, you know, we

Anthony Perl:

live in a society where there's an

Anthony Perl:

expectation of performance and,

Anthony Perl:

um, you know, I know it's actually

Anthony Perl:

interesting that around me, uh,

Anthony Perl:

in the last year, um, 2, 3, 4, even.

Anthony Perl:

Um, reasonably close friends that have.

Anthony Perl:

Found themselves, uh, lost

Anthony Perl:

out of work.

Anthony Perl:

Mm-hmm.

Anthony Perl:

That they've lost their, they've lost

Anthony Perl:

their position, and, and mostly

Anthony Perl:

it's been through no fault of their own.

Anthony Perl:

It's a, you know, restructuring

Anthony Perl:

situation, whatever's

Anthony Perl:

happening in, in different businesses

Anthony Perl:

and things.

Anthony Perl:

And I was actually thinking about this

Anthony Perl:

the other day, that that's, that is so

Anthony Perl:

vulnerable to tell people about that

Anthony Perl:

because there's an expectation that

Anthony Perl:

you'll always be employed and you'll

Anthony Perl:

always be aspiring at a high level and

Anthony Perl:

you'll keep going up and up and up.

Anthony Perl:

And that's not always the case.

Anthony Perl:

Right.

Anthony Perl:

And but even that for, I think

Anthony Perl:

particularly for men, is actually

Anthony Perl:

a, it's, it's very, it's it's

Anthony Perl:

very vulnerable because there's

Anthony Perl:

an expectation, particularly

Anthony Perl:

not just around performance,

Anthony Perl:

but around, um.

Anthony Perl:

Financial side of things,

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: right?

Anthony Perl:

Yeah.

Anthony Perl:

It's, it's a real challenge for men.

Anthony Perl:

And when I was teaching, I

Anthony Perl:

was teaching in Luxembourg and one

Anthony Perl:

of my students, I think he was from

Anthony Perl:

Russia, he was definitely from

Anthony Perl:

Eastern Europe.

Anthony Perl:

He said, any man who makes himself

Anthony Perl:

vulnerable isn't a real man.

Anthony Perl:

And so there's this very strong

Anthony Perl:

mindset around you gotta be perfect.

Anthony Perl:

You can't make mistakes.

Anthony Perl:

And you don't ever admit that

Anthony Perl:

you're struggling or need help.

Anthony Perl:

And I challenged that idea, right?

Anthony Perl:

I said, look, I, I'm teaching here.

Anthony Perl:

I'm making myself vulnerable

Anthony Perl:

all the time.

Anthony Perl:

I'm sharing stories about myself,

Anthony Perl:

imperfections about myself.

Anthony Perl:

Are you suggesting I'm not a real man?

Anthony Perl:

And he kind of went, well.

Anthony Perl:

I said, 'cause we could go outside

Anthony Perl:

and have a f. Fairly serious discussion

Anthony Perl:

about that.

Anthony Perl:

He was like, no, no, no.

Anthony Perl:

I said, okay.

Anthony Perl:

Because I think it's actually a sign of

Anthony Perl:

strength to be able to be vulnerable,

Anthony Perl:

to ask for help.

Anthony Perl:

And you know, I was working with

Anthony Perl:

a group of senior executives and we

Anthony Perl:

were talking about benevolence, which

Anthony Perl:

is one of the levers we can pull, right?

Anthony Perl:

So from the individual

Anthony Perl:

perspective, we've talked about

Anthony Perl:

context, but from the individual

Anthony Perl:

perspective, there's three levers.

Anthony Perl:

I can pull to make you think

Anthony Perl:

I'm trustworthy.

Anthony Perl:

One is benevolence, which is the

Anthony Perl:

belief you have got your best

Anthony Perl:

interest at heart.

Anthony Perl:

Two is integrity.

Anthony Perl:

Do I follow through on my

Anthony Perl:

commitments and do my actions line

Anthony Perl:

up with my values?

Anthony Perl:

And three is ability.

Anthony Perl:

Do I have the confidence to

Anthony Perl:

do what I say I'm gonna do?

Anthony Perl:

And so I'm getting them to tell stories

Anthony Perl:

about times when they've helped

Anthony Perl:

someone when they've been benevolent.

Anthony Perl:

And there's six of them in the room.

Anthony Perl:

And they go around and they tell these

Anthony Perl:

powerful stories and they're all smiling,

Anthony Perl:

and the, the mood is just buzzing, right?

Anthony Perl:

You can just feel the intensity.

Anthony Perl:

And I said, this is fantastic.

Anthony Perl:

Now if, if you could just explain

Anthony Perl:

to me why you're so effing selfish.

Anthony Perl:

And they go, what?

Anthony Perl:

What are you talking about?

Anthony Perl:

I said, even years later,

Anthony Perl:

you describe how powerful a moment

Anthony Perl:

it was for you to help somebody.

Anthony Perl:

To show up when they needed you.

Anthony Perl:

And you feel the positive energy

Anthony Perl:

that in this exact moment,

Anthony Perl:

but you never let anyone have that

Anthony Perl:

experience with you.

Anthony Perl:

You never ask for help.

Anthony Perl:

You never admit you don't know

Anthony Perl:

something.

Anthony Perl:

You never reach out.

Anthony Perl:

Anthony Perl: Interesting.

Anthony Perl:

It, it, it's, it's, it's so,

Anthony Perl:

you know, I can immediately thinking

Anthony Perl:

of many situations where I think

Anthony Perl:

I've seen that.

Anthony Perl:

I think we all can.

Anthony Perl:

Yeah.

Anthony Perl:

Um, and uh, you know, what

Anthony Perl:

fascinates me about vulnerability is

Anthony Perl:

that saying before that the walls are

Anthony Perl:

up so often, and you know, I mentioned to

Anthony Perl:

you before we came on air and those

Anthony Perl:

listening to the program are very

Anthony Perl:

aware that, uh, you know, my primary

Anthony Perl:

business is podcast done for you.

Anthony Perl:

Great.

Anthony Perl:

And so podcasting is very much about, um.

Anthony Perl:

Building trust with your audience and

Anthony Perl:

vulnerability is a key part of that.

Anthony Perl:

And it comes into telling stories

Anthony Perl:

because it's a learning curve.

Anthony Perl:

It's showing that you've learned.

Anthony Perl:

I think it's one of the differences

Anthony Perl:

between a podcast and a webinar.

Anthony Perl:

Webinar is very much a, these

Anthony Perl:

are my learnings.

Anthony Perl:

This is what you've gotta do, um,

Anthony Perl:

come by from me.

Anthony Perl:

Whereas a podcast is.

Anthony Perl:

Get to know me, let me share some

Anthony Perl:

things, let me share some how

Anthony Perl:

I've gone on this journey and these

Anthony Perl:

different things along the way.

Anthony Perl:

And I think that's what makes a truly

Anthony Perl:

great podcast is when that is open

Anthony Perl:

and you hear that all the time.

Anthony Perl:

You know, whether it's a celebrity

Anthony Perl:

based podcast, uh, you know, where

Anthony Perl:

you've got actors telling about

Anthony Perl:

auditions and things that happen early

Anthony Perl:

on in their career, et cetera, uh, to.

Anthony Perl:

A business.

Anthony Perl:

You know, I've, I've a podcast

Anthony Perl:

I've got with a particular client

Anthony Perl:

that I'm thinking of and was talking

Anthony Perl:

about, you know, his early days of

Anthony Perl:

teaching and, and, uh, how things went

Anthony Perl:

wrong, you know, in a particular

Anthony Perl:

episode that he talked about.

Anthony Perl:

And I think that that sort of

Anthony Perl:

vulnerability is rarer than what

Anthony Perl:

you, than what people think

Anthony Perl:

that these, these barriers are up.

Anthony Perl:

And yet we want people to do

Anthony Perl:

business with us.

Anthony Perl:

We want them to trust us.

Anthony Perl:

How do you actually get that message

Anthony Perl:

through that vulnerability

Anthony Perl:

is so important.

Anthony Perl:

Yeah.

Anthony Perl:

And this is

Darryl Stickel:

part of the challenge.

Darryl Stickel:

I mean, my podcast is called The

Darryl Stickel:

Imperfect Cafe.

Darryl Stickel:

Um, and it's, it's around leadership.

Darryl Stickel:

And I agree with you.

Darryl Stickel:

We're trying to build trust with our

Darryl Stickel:

audience so that we can engage with them

Darryl Stickel:

so that we hopefully have impact.

Darryl Stickel:

We have a positive impact

Darryl Stickel:

on their lives.

Darryl Stickel:

Right.

Darryl Stickel:

And.

Darryl Stickel:

When I talk to people about pulling

Darryl Stickel:

these levers, you know, the,

Darryl Stickel:

the ability lever tends to be our

Darryl Stickel:

favorite lever.

Anthony Perl:

Mm.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: And so we'll

Anthony Perl:

say, I have these much, this much

Anthony Perl:

experience, these credentials, you

Anthony Perl:

know, this position in the world.

Anthony Perl:

But if I really wanted to know what

Anthony Perl:

good look like, I'd actually include you

Anthony Perl:

in the conversation.

Anthony Perl:

Right.

Anthony Perl:

And

Anthony Perl:

yeah,

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: something I normally

Anthony Perl:

do is, is I'll say, I wanna be the

Anthony Perl:

best guest you've ever had, or one

Anthony Perl:

of the best guests you've ever had.

Anthony Perl:

How do I do that?

Anthony Perl:

And so if I asked you that you'd,

Anthony Perl:

you'd say, well, you'd help my

Anthony Perl:

listeners be better off than they

Anthony Perl:

are today before they've listened

Anthony Perl:

to the podcast.

Anthony Perl:

You'd be.

Anthony Perl:

Engaging and genuine.

Anthony Perl:

And you think about my audience, not

Anthony Perl:

just yourself.

Anthony Perl:

Absolutely.

Anthony Perl:

Right.

Anthony Perl:

And so,

Anthony Perl:

so I'm trying to be the best I can be

Anthony Perl:

for your audience.

Anthony Perl:

And one of the interesting

Anthony Perl:

challenges that you face is

Anthony Perl:

you're helping people with vastly

Anthony Perl:

different audiences.

Anthony Perl:

And so you should, should be having

Anthony Perl:

conversations.

Anthony Perl:

'cause in a perfect world, you and

Anthony Perl:

I would actually talk to some of

Anthony Perl:

your listeners and say, what's

Anthony Perl:

compelling for you?

Anthony Perl:

How do I speak in a way that helps make

Anthony Perl:

your life better, that makes you want

Anthony Perl:

to listen to this podcast that makes

Anthony Perl:

it change your life in a positive way.

Anthony Perl:

It's, and it's really

Anthony Perl:

interesting you say that and you.

Anthony Perl:

May not be able to see what

Anthony Perl:

is behind me.

Anthony Perl:

And there's a sign that says, uh, and

Anthony Perl:

for those that are listening and not

Anthony Perl:

watching as well, it's worthwhile

Anthony Perl:

pointing out.

Anthony Perl:

There's a sign behind me that

Anthony Perl:

says, being the voice of brilliance.

Anthony Perl:

Brilliance is, is something that

Anthony Perl:

I talk very much about in, in podcast

Anthony Perl:

Done for You.

Anthony Perl:

Uh, that that's what we are

Anthony Perl:

seeking to do, is to allow other

Anthony Perl:

people's brilliance to be heard.

Anthony Perl:

It's part of what we're doing on

Anthony Perl:

this program is, is allowing our guest

Anthony Perl:

brilliance to be heard and brilliance

Anthony Perl:

can be mistaken for perfection.

Anthony Perl:

But it's not right.

Anthony Perl:

Brilliance comes from stories and

Anthony Perl:

vulnerability as much as

Anthony Perl:

anything else.

Anthony Perl:

And I think, you know, if I

Anthony Perl:

certainly, you know, in, in ticking

Anthony Perl:

the boxes for what makes a great guest

Anthony Perl:

for this program, there's two probably

Anthony Perl:

critical elements and the one we

Anthony Perl:

most commonly talk about is giving

Anthony Perl:

those little one percenters that will

Anthony Perl:

make a difference to people listening

Anthony Perl:

that can act on things and improve

Anthony Perl:

their life, their business as a

Anthony Perl:

result of, of some ideas that

Anthony Perl:

have come across on the program.

Anthony Perl:

Right, but just giving those ideas

Anthony Perl:

on their own without context and story

Anthony Perl:

is useless because why would you

Anthony Perl:

trust that person?

Anthony Perl:

Why would you believe them?

Anthony Perl:

When you hear the story around it

Anthony Perl:

and you understand the thought and

Anthony Perl:

the processes that have gone into it,

Anthony Perl:

and the insights that have happened

Anthony Perl:

along the way, then the trust

Anthony Perl:

factor increases and the desire.

Anthony Perl:

Therefore to enact on some of

Anthony Perl:

those things and potentially also

Anthony Perl:

then to want to engage directly with

Anthony Perl:

the guest increases.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Yeah,

Anthony Perl:

Anthony Perl: I mean, I, I'm

Anthony Perl:

definitely hoping that, uh, people

Anthony Perl:

are going to, um, you know, tune in

Anthony Perl:

and listen to your podcast as well, and

Anthony Perl:

we'll make sure we include some links

Anthony Perl:

to that in the, uh, in the show notes.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Yeah, that'd

Anthony Perl:

be brilliant.

Anthony Perl:

I mean, part of my mission is to

Anthony Perl:

get the signal through the noise.

Anthony Perl:

Because, 'cause when I talk to real

Anthony Perl:

people and I show them the model,

Anthony Perl:

they go, this just feels obvious.

Anthony Perl:

It feels like common sense.

Anthony Perl:

Like how is, how'd you get a PhD? And

Anthony Perl:

when I talk to trust experts, they go,

Anthony Perl:

nobody else on the planet is talking

Anthony Perl:

about it this way.

Anthony Perl:

This is so practical and applied.

Anthony Perl:

You're talking about, you know,

Anthony Perl:

I have 10 levers in my model.

Anthony Perl:

We all have the ability to

Anthony Perl:

build trust.

Anthony Perl:

Some are just better than others.

Anthony Perl:

You know, those who aren't very

Anthony Perl:

good have a lever that they pull.

Anthony Perl:

Usually it's the ability lever.

Anthony Perl:

Those who are better have multiple

Anthony Perl:

levers, and those who are really good

Anthony Perl:

have multiple levers and they know when

Anthony Perl:

to pull which one.

Anthony Perl:

Right.

Anthony Perl:

So you and I just role modeled the

Anthony Perl:

ability lever.

Anthony Perl:

Hmm.

Anthony Perl:

Right.

Anthony Perl:

Trying to pull that and having a

Anthony Perl:

discussion about what good looks like

Anthony Perl:

for you, what good looks like for your

Anthony Perl:

audience so they can have a conversation.

Anthony Perl:

Because a lot of times leaders,

Anthony Perl:

I'll tell them benevolence,

Anthony Perl:

integrity and ability, and

Anthony Perl:

they'll go, I do those things.

Anthony Perl:

Yep.

Darryl Stickel:

And I'll say, says who?

Darryl Stickel:

Right?

Darryl Stickel:

Because if it's me telling you I've got

Darryl Stickel:

your best interest at heart, it doesn't

Darryl Stickel:

land nearly as well as you believing it.

Anthony Perl:

Yep.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: And for you to

Anthony Perl:

believe it, I have to include you in

Anthony Perl:

the conversation

Anthony Perl:

Anthony Perl: and, and it's so

Anthony Perl:

interesting with all of that because

Anthony Perl:

one of the things that I talk about.

Anthony Perl:

And again, this is not what this

Anthony Perl:

conversation tool will be about

Anthony Perl:

podcasting, but I think it's an

Anthony Perl:

important thing point to make

Anthony Perl:

here is that the best podcasts are

Anthony Perl:

a conversation where the people

Anthony Perl:

that are listening feel like you are

Anthony Perl:

talking to them,

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: right?

Anthony Perl:

Anthony Perl: And that is

Anthony Perl:

what the key is.

Anthony Perl:

Is that, you know, I, I've

Anthony Perl:

worked in radio for a long time.

Anthony Perl:

I've built large audiences in radio

Anthony Perl:

and the key thing that I learned

Anthony Perl:

very early on in the piece was you

Anthony Perl:

don't think about the thousands

Anthony Perl:

and hundreds of thousands of

Anthony Perl:

people that might be listening.

Anthony Perl:

It just has to be one person that

Anthony Perl:

is sitting there going, they're

Anthony Perl:

talking to me.

Anthony Perl:

And if that's the case, then you

Anthony Perl:

are building, as you said, you're

Anthony Perl:

building trust.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Yeah, and I, I

Anthony Perl:

try to role model the model, so

Anthony Perl:

I try to show benevolence, right?

Anthony Perl:

Like, there's nothing I'm

Anthony Perl:

holding back.

Anthony Perl:

There's no, you know, buy this for

Anthony Perl:

10 easy lessons or here's the secret.

Anthony Perl:

I'm telling you everything that

Anthony Perl:

comes to mind.

Anthony Perl:

When I wrote the book, I wrote it

Anthony Perl:

so that if I go away, what I know

Anthony Perl:

doesn't, and I. I'm trying to help

Anthony Perl:

your audience be better prepared to

Anthony Perl:

have conversations about trust than

Anthony Perl:

they were before they listened.

Anthony Perl:

I find it fascinating

Anthony Perl:

when you read a lot of content that's

Anthony Perl:

posted online, and particularly

Anthony Perl:

now with the advent of ai.

Anthony Perl:

It's tries to talk in some respects,

Anthony Perl:

to an emotion.

Anthony Perl:

You need this very rarely.

Anthony Perl:

Are there stories that are built into

Anthony Perl:

the component and very rarely are

Anthony Perl:

there vulnerable stories that are

Anthony Perl:

built into it.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Right.

Anthony Perl:

And that's where I think

Anthony Perl:

the difference is.

Anthony Perl:

It's fascinating.

Anthony Perl:

Even when you look at some of

Anthony Perl:

the well-known entrepreneurs,

Anthony Perl:

the, the.

Anthony Perl:

You know, the big people over the

Anthony Perl:

years that, uh, and pick any number of

Anthony Perl:

different ones from a, you know, Richard

Anthony Perl:

Branson onwards.

Anthony Perl:

Um, there is a degree of

Anthony Perl:

vulnerability with what they

Anthony Perl:

give over as well.

Anthony Perl:

And I think that we lose that because

Anthony Perl:

everyone's striving for the perfection

Anthony Perl:

and forget that a perfection's

Anthony Perl:

not achievable.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Right.

Anthony Perl:

Anthony Perl: Um, but, but b,

Anthony Perl:

that, um, it's.

Anthony Perl:

It's the journey which entices people

Anthony Perl:

along the way.

Anthony Perl:

That's what's fascinating

Anthony Perl:

about speaking to those people.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Yeah, and every

Anthony Perl:

leader I talked to, I ask them, are you

Anthony Perl:

the same leader now?

Anthony Perl:

You were five years ago?

Anthony Perl:

And they all say, no.

Anthony Perl:

I've learned and grown and developed.

Anthony Perl:

And I'll say, are you gonna be the

Anthony Perl:

same leader five years from now?

Anthony Perl:

No, I, I hope not.

Anthony Perl:

So that means you're gonna let go of

Anthony Perl:

some of the things that got you here,

Anthony Perl:

some of the things you're good at, and

Anthony Perl:

step into the things that would make you

Anthony Perl:

great as you evolve.

Anthony Perl:

And anytime you try something new,

Anthony Perl:

you make mistakes.

Anthony Perl:

And so how do we prepare the people

Anthony Perl:

around us for the fact that we're

Anthony Perl:

gonna stumble?

Anthony Perl:

And I tell 'em they should be thinking

Anthony Perl:

about having a conversation with

Anthony Perl:

those they lead and saying we're all

Anthony Perl:

gonna be learning and adapting and

Anthony Perl:

evolving because the world's moving

Anthony Perl:

too fast for us to stand still.

Anthony Perl:

And on that journey, we're all gonna

Anthony Perl:

make mistakes, including me.

Anthony Perl:

I will stumble and I may fall.

Anthony Perl:

When I do that, my expectation is

Anthony Perl:

that you're gonna be standing beside

Anthony Perl:

me, helping me back up, helping

Anthony Perl:

me learn from that experience.

Anthony Perl:

'cause that's exactly what

Anthony Perl:

I'm gonna be doing for you.

Anthony Perl:

Sure.

Anthony Perl:

Anthony Perl: It's, you know,

Anthony Perl:

that idea is so simple, but yet.

Anthony Perl:

It seems like a, there's a, there are

Anthony Perl:

many brick walls in between it for the

Anthony Perl:

majority of people.

Anthony Perl:

Yeah.

Anthony Perl:

And I imagine that when you've gone

Anthony Perl:

into businesses small to large, that

Anthony Perl:

it's those walls being up, which is

Anthony Perl:

usually the cause of the problem.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Yeah.

Anthony Perl:

It's often the inability to accept

Anthony Perl:

responsibility for, for our

Anthony Perl:

own mistakes.

Anthony Perl:

Um, or to tolerate the mistakes

Anthony Perl:

of others.

Anthony Perl:

Um, I've heard so many senior leaders

Anthony Perl:

say, if I make one mistake, I'm done.

Anthony Perl:

And that can't be true because we all

Anthony Perl:

make mistakes on a regular basis.

Anthony Perl:

Um, and so what I try to convince

Anthony Perl:

leaders to do is to actually talk

Anthony Perl:

about the fact that.

Anthony Perl:

They haven't been perfect the whole

Anthony Perl:

time they've been around, but they've

Anthony Perl:

made mistakes and when they were

Anthony Perl:

in other roles that there was

Anthony Perl:

a learning curve that was involved.

Anthony Perl:

It helps humanize them because if

Anthony Perl:

we wander around with this mindset

Anthony Perl:

that I have to be perfect, it means we

Anthony Perl:

need everyone else to be perfect too.

Anthony Perl:

And that leads to micromanaging

Anthony Perl:

and squelching of innovation

Anthony Perl:

and adaptation.

Anthony Perl:

It means that people become

Anthony Perl:

incredibly cautious.

Anthony Perl:

And one of my favorite papers

Anthony Perl:

is by, uh, one of my advisors, SIM

Anthony Perl:

Kin, and it, the concept is the gains

Anthony Perl:

of small losses.

Anthony Perl:

And in that paper he says that if your

Anthony Perl:

people are pushing to the limit of

Anthony Perl:

their abilities, they should be

Anthony Perl:

making mistakes.

Anthony Perl:

And if they aren't, it's a

Anthony Perl:

sign that they're being cautious,

Anthony Perl:

too conservative.

Anthony Perl:

Anthony Perl: It's there are,

Anthony Perl:

when you, when you talk about

Anthony Perl:

businesses at that level, it's

Anthony Perl:

amazing to me how many times you

Anthony Perl:

have A-A-C-E-O that commissions some

Anthony Perl:

research and when the research comes

Anthony Perl:

back that says.

Anthony Perl:

They might be the problem, how quickly

Anthony Perl:

they quash that and move to other areas

Anthony Perl:

because they can't possibly be the

Anthony Perl:

problem and they're not allowed to be

Anthony Perl:

the problem because they're the CEO or

Anthony Perl:

the business owner.

Anthony Perl:

And it just, that's not what,

Anthony Perl:

it's just not what they're looking

Anthony Perl:

for as the, as the answer, right?

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Yeah.

Anthony Perl:

Or resistance to getting that kind

Anthony Perl:

of information in the first place.

Anthony Perl:

Right, because I've been involved in

Anthony Perl:

situations where we've said, well,

Anthony Perl:

we could measure trust levels.

Anthony Perl:

And senior executives are

Anthony Perl:

quick to say, you could do that for

Anthony Perl:

middle management, but not for us.

Anthony Perl:

Um, and this gets us to one

Anthony Perl:

of the challenges that we face.

Anthony Perl:

You know, trust has incredible value.

Anthony Perl:

We've seen that it leads to world

Anthony Perl:

breaking performance leads to incredible

Anthony Perl:

outcomes if it's high enough.

Anthony Perl:

Within teams and organizations,

Anthony Perl:

it leads to higher returns to

Anthony Perl:

shareholders, higher retention rates,

Anthony Perl:

all these things.

Anthony Perl:

Yet it's at some of the lowest levels

Anthony Perl:

we've ever measured.

Anthony Perl:

The biggest gap we tend to find

Anthony Perl:

is between how much CEOs believe

Anthony Perl:

they're trusted senior executives,

Anthony Perl:

and how much they actually are.

Anthony Perl:

And, and so there's this delusion,

Anthony Perl:

you know, 95% of us believe we're

Anthony Perl:

more trustworthy than average, and

Anthony Perl:

that's not just statistically

Anthony Perl:

impossible.

Anthony Perl:

It's problematic.

Anthony Perl:

Yeah.

Anthony Perl:

Because it means that if, if

Anthony Perl:

something came up between you and

Anthony Perl:

I, we would both think be thinking

Anthony Perl:

it's the other person's fault.

Anthony Perl:

Yep.

Anthony Perl:

It means we're not able to resolve

Anthony Perl:

those conversations or, or challenges

Anthony Perl:

that we run into.

Anthony Perl:

And so, you know, I talk to people about

Anthony Perl:

the locus of control challenge, you

Anthony Perl:

know, an internal versus an external

Anthony Perl:

locus of control.

Anthony Perl:

And for your listeners, an

Anthony Perl:

internal looks of control means

Anthony Perl:

you're master of your own destiny.

Anthony Perl:

You make things happen in the

Anthony Perl:

world, you're, you're an actor.

Anthony Perl:

External looks of control means

Anthony Perl:

you're buffeted by the winds of fate.

Anthony Perl:

Things happen to you.

Anthony Perl:

Yep.

Anthony Perl:

And so when I used to teach undergrads,

Anthony Perl:

I'd say to them, you know, I'd explain

Anthony Perl:

that and I'd say, who here has an

Anthony Perl:

internal of control?

Anthony Perl:

And all the hands would go up stirring

Anthony Perl:

site, and I'd say, this is awesome.

Anthony Perl:

This means that if you fail the class

Anthony Perl:

or do poorly, it's not because I didn't

Anthony Perl:

teach it properly.

Anthony Perl:

The test was too hard.

Anthony Perl:

It's all you baby.

Anthony Perl:

And they'd all kind of go, oh,

Anthony Perl:

wait a minute.

Anthony Perl:

I said, that's right.

Anthony Perl:

We tend to have an internal lo

Anthony Perl:

of control and we're successful

Anthony Perl:

and an external locus of control

Anthony Perl:

when we fail.

Anthony Perl:

And my sons were heavily involved

Anthony Perl:

in sports.

Anthony Perl:

They never lost a game where the

Anthony Perl:

ref didn't suck.

Anthony Perl:

And so.

Anthony Perl:

This is one of the challenges

Anthony Perl:

we have with learning, right?

Anthony Perl:

Because what we should be doing is

Anthony Perl:

looking at those situations when

Anthony Perl:

we're successful and saying, what

Anthony Perl:

role did the environment play?

Anthony Perl:

So that I can look for environments

Anthony Perl:

like that in the future to improve

Anthony Perl:

my chances of being successful.

Anthony Perl:

And when we fail, we should be looking

Anthony Perl:

at our own behavior and saying, what

Anthony Perl:

are some of the things I could have

Anthony Perl:

done differently?

Anthony Perl:

How could I learn?

Anthony Perl:

I, it's a fascinating

Anthony Perl:

analogy.

Anthony Perl:

I think for, for what you've just

Anthony Perl:

described is actually sport

Anthony Perl:

and, and football in particular,

Anthony Perl:

and it doesn't matter which kind

Anthony Perl:

of football code you follow, we've

Anthony Perl:

all heard this.

Anthony Perl:

The team has lost, they blame the, you

Anthony Perl:

know, there's a, particularly the

Anthony Perl:

fans, I wouldn't say necessarily

Anthony Perl:

the coaches, but the fans often

Anthony Perl:

blame the referee.

Anthony Perl:

Sometimes the coaches do as well.

Anthony Perl:

Yep.

Anthony Perl:

If this had have been ruled this way,

Anthony Perl:

then we would've won the game and.

Anthony Perl:

You know, but I think actually the

Anthony Perl:

truly great coaches might question

Anthony Perl:

some decisions, but still say that

Anthony Perl:

there's so much that we can take

Anthony Perl:

out of the game.

Anthony Perl:

It wasn't that one, two second moment

Anthony Perl:

where the ref blew the whistle.

Anthony Perl:

That actually changed the fate

Anthony Perl:

of the game because there were, you

Anthony Perl:

know, there were x number of minutes

Anthony Perl:

of, of other times that things happened

Anthony Perl:

that the game could have been won.

Anthony Perl:

Right.

Anthony Perl:

And that's the, that's the

Anthony Perl:

difference isn't it as well in business

Anthony Perl:

It is that you can focus on those

Anthony Perl:

little things, but it is actually

Anthony Perl:

going back to being more vulnerable and

Anthony Perl:

looking at what were the other things

Anthony Perl:

that went wrong.

Anthony Perl:

It wasn't just that moment.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Well, and we

Anthony Perl:

can also see the forwards blame the

Anthony Perl:

defense for not getting the ball

Anthony Perl:

to them or everyone blaming the goalie.

Anthony Perl:

'cause he only stopped 30 of

Anthony Perl:

the 35 shots that came at him.

Anthony Perl:

Um, and we could see that happen within

Anthony Perl:

organizations, right?

Anthony Perl:

Where we blame it on sales or marketing

Anthony Perl:

or operations or distribution.

Anthony Perl:

We create these us and them scenarios

Anthony Perl:

when it should be we, and we should

Anthony Perl:

be creating an environment where

Anthony Perl:

if there are problems we need

Anthony Perl:

to solve them.

Anthony Perl:

Anthony Perl: I think it's.

Anthony Perl:

So important to not only be vulnerable

Anthony Perl:

as we've talked about here, but also

Anthony Perl:

to be willing to give in a way that

Anthony Perl:

makes an impact.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Yeah.

Anthony Perl:

I think that's such an

Anthony Perl:

important thing that often businesses

Anthony Perl:

hold back say, well, we're the leader.

Anthony Perl:

I hate that.

Anthony Perl:

Determined because so many businesses

Anthony Perl:

say that we are the leader.

Anthony Perl:

I don't know how you justify that.

Anthony Perl:

Who's actually given that, uh,

Anthony Perl:

particular honor 'cause I've never

Anthony Perl:

seen it, uh, in a particular space.

Anthony Perl:

Therefore, you must trust us and we will

Anthony Perl:

do stuff for you without actually

Anthony Perl:

giving anything over, right?

Anthony Perl:

Because if you can't be a little bit

Anthony Perl:

impactful with what you deliver, and

Anthony Perl:

you've given plenty of insights today

Anthony Perl:

in this, uh, in this conversation of what

Anthony Perl:

things people can do and the impact that

Anthony Perl:

they can make, then you can't possibly

Anthony Perl:

expect to build.

Anthony Perl:

Trust as well.

Anthony Perl:

And it's one of the things I like doing

Anthony Perl:

and, and I often do this in business,

Anthony Perl:

uh, as well, and we've had a person

Anthony Perl:

behind this on the program in the past.

Anthony Perl:

It's a terrific organization called

Anthony Perl:

B one G one, and it's very easy to

Anthony Perl:

show when you have.

Anthony Perl:

Interactions with people, how you

Anthony Perl:

can make an impact somewhere else

Anthony Perl:

in the world as well as a result

Anthony Perl:

of simply having a conversation.

Anthony Perl:

And, um, you know, I, and, and that's

Anthony Perl:

a positive impact through a charity.

Anthony Perl:

And it can happen from a few cents

Anthony Perl:

to hundreds of dollars, whatever

Anthony Perl:

it, whatever you choose to, to do.

Anthony Perl:

And I think impact for business.

Anthony Perl:

Doesn't have to be necessarily just

Anthony Perl:

about what you do.

Anthony Perl:

'cause that can sometimes be

Anthony Perl:

difficult to pull off, right?

Anthony Perl:

But you can make an impact in some

Anthony Perl:

way, shape, or form to build that

Anthony Perl:

level of trust.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: Well, and as a

Anthony Perl:

leader, I tend to think that one

Anthony Perl:

of the strongest levers we can pull

Anthony Perl:

is the benevolence lever, right?

Anthony Perl:

So benevolence integrity and

Anthony Perl:

ability are the three sort of

Anthony Perl:

individual levers, and that's where

Anthony Perl:

most of the trust literature sits.

Anthony Perl:

Um,

Anthony Perl:

a ability is a moving target.

Anthony Perl:

What made a great leader 10 years

Anthony Perl:

ago is probably not the same

Anthony Perl:

thing that makes them great today.

Anthony Perl:

And integrity is getting harder

Anthony Perl:

and harder to maintain because

Anthony Perl:

norms and values are shifting and

Anthony Perl:

the world is moving so fast, it's hard

Anthony Perl:

to make long-term commitments, but

Anthony Perl:

we can always have each other's best

Anthony Perl:

interests at heart.

Anthony Perl:

We can always try to look out

Anthony Perl:

for each other.

Anthony Perl:

And, you know, there's a number of

Anthony Perl:

ways we can do that.

Anthony Perl:

Um, again, I was teaching

Anthony Perl:

in Luxembourg.

Anthony Perl:

I was sitting with a group of students.

Anthony Perl:

I said to them, you know, I said to one

Anthony Perl:

of them, tell me a relationship that

Anthony Perl:

matters to you.

Anthony Perl:

One, that's important.

Anthony Perl:

He said, one girlfriend.

Anthony Perl:

I said, great, and what matters to her?

Anthony Perl:

And he said, her family.

Anthony Perl:

I think her family's the most

Anthony Perl:

important thing.

Anthony Perl:

I said, tonight, you're gonna

Anthony Perl:

go home.

Anthony Perl:

You're gonna have a conversation with

Anthony Perl:

your girlfriend.

Anthony Perl:

You're gonna say in class today,

Anthony Perl:

the professor was asking us about a

Anthony Perl:

relationship that really mattered, and

Anthony Perl:

I thought about you.

Anthony Perl:

That's step one.

Anthony Perl:

You're showing her that you're thinking

Anthony Perl:

about her and that she matters to you.

Anthony Perl:

I said, and then you're gonna say

Anthony Perl:

to her, he asked me what was most

Anthony Perl:

important to you?

Anthony Perl:

And I said, family.

Anthony Perl:

Is that right?

Anthony Perl:

Step two, you're thinking about

Anthony Perl:

what matters to her, but you're

Anthony Perl:

open to her input.

Anthony Perl:

You are open to being wrong if you

Anthony Perl:

didn't get it right.

Anthony Perl:

Said when she says, yes, my family's

Anthony Perl:

really important to me, then you engage

Anthony Perl:

in step three, which is saying, because

Anthony Perl:

your family matters so much to you, I'm

Anthony Perl:

gonna assume that it matters to you

Anthony Perl:

that I get along well with them too.

Anthony Perl:

And so I'm gonna start spending

Anthony Perl:

more time trying to build a stronger

Anthony Perl:

relationship with your family.

Anthony Perl:

I'm gonna have dinners with them.

Anthony Perl:

I'm gonna have conversations

Anthony Perl:

with them.

Anthony Perl:

I'm gonna share more parts of my life

Anthony Perl:

with them because it matters to you.

Anthony Perl:

And that's showing her benevolence and

Anthony Perl:

being transparent about it.

Anthony Perl:

He showed up the next day in class

Anthony Perl:

with a huge grin on his face.

Anthony Perl:

He said, I'm allowed to talk to you

Anthony Perl:

whenever I want.

Anthony Perl:

Um, and it it's about being

Anthony Perl:

transparent when we're trying to

Anthony Perl:

show benevolence to to one another.

Anthony Perl:

And I'd like to give your audience

Anthony Perl:

a brief framework that they can use

Anthony Perl:

to try this out

Anthony Perl:

place.

Darryl Stickel:

So.

Darryl Stickel:

Say that you were listening to the

Darryl Stickel:

Biz Bytes podcast.

Darryl Stickel:

'cause that's good for, uh, all of us.

Darryl Stickel:

Um, and that you heard somebody

Darryl Stickel:

talking about trust and they said

Darryl Stickel:

benevolence was really important.

Darryl Stickel:

And really, that's just a fancy word.

Darryl Stickel:

That means having someone's back or

Darryl Stickel:

having their best interest at heart.

Darryl Stickel:

And then you're gonna say, I think

Darryl Stickel:

I do that, but it doesn't always seem

Darryl Stickel:

to land that way.

Darryl Stickel:

Have you ever experienced that?

Darryl Stickel:

99% of people are gonna say,

Darryl Stickel:

oh God, yes.

Darryl Stickel:

You're gonna get curious about that.

Darryl Stickel:

What did they do?

Darryl Stickel:

What did they try?

Darryl Stickel:

How did it not work out the way

Darryl Stickel:

they intended?

Darryl Stickel:

Then you're gonna narrow the funnel

Darryl Stickel:

and you're gonna say, have you ever

Darryl Stickel:

had a time when somebody really had

Darryl Stickel:

your back really looked out for you?

Darryl Stickel:

What did they do?

Darryl Stickel:

What did it feel like?

Darryl Stickel:

And they're gonna get a smile on

Darryl Stickel:

their face as they're thinking

Darryl Stickel:

about a moment when someone really

Darryl Stickel:

looked out for them.

Darryl Stickel:

You're priming them for the next stage

Darryl Stickel:

of the conversation.

Darryl Stickel:

You're getting hints about what

Darryl Stickel:

benevolence actually looks like to them.

Darryl Stickel:

What, what matters to them.

Darryl Stickel:

Then you're gonna narrow the funnel

Darryl Stickel:

further and you're gonna say, what is

Darryl Stickel:

success for you?

Darryl Stickel:

How do I help you get there?

Darryl Stickel:

What would it look like if I

Darryl Stickel:

had your best interest at heart?

Darryl Stickel:

Now you've created an opportunity for

Darryl Stickel:

transparency because later on when you

Darryl Stickel:

follow up and try to act in their

Darryl Stickel:

best interest, you can say to them,

Darryl Stickel:

you remember when you told me that

Darryl Stickel:

this is what good looked like for you?

Darryl Stickel:

What success was for you?

Darryl Stickel:

This is me trying to help you get there.

Darryl Stickel:

Anthony Perl: I love that.

Darryl Stickel:

Thank you so much for that.

Darryl Stickel:

And everything else in the discussion,

Darryl Stickel:

I feel as though we could talk for

Darryl Stickel:

hours and hours and hours on this,

Darryl Stickel:

on this topic.

Darryl Stickel:

Um, just want to wrap things up with

Darryl Stickel:

one final question that I like to ask

Darryl Stickel:

all of my guests who come on the program.

Darryl Stickel:

What's the aha moment that people

Darryl Stickel:

have when they come to work with you

Darryl Stickel:

that you wish they were, they knew in

Darryl Stickel:

advance they were going to have?

Darryl Stickel:

Hmm.

Darryl Stickel:

So when, when people hear that we're

Darryl Stickel:

gonna do trust training, they often

Darryl Stickel:

think about hot calls and blindfolds

Darryl Stickel:

and falling off of things.

Darryl Stickel:

Um,

Darryl Stickel:

trust building is a skill that

Darryl Stickel:

we can all get better at and.

Darryl Stickel:

I wish I didn't have to take quite

Darryl Stickel:

as long explaining that to them, making

Darryl Stickel:

it clear to them, because we need to

Darryl Stickel:

be more intentional about building

Darryl Stickel:

trust now than we've ever had to

Darryl Stickel:

be in in the past.

Darryl Stickel:

Our relationships tend to be a mile

Darryl Stickel:

wide and an inch deep, and we're

Darryl Stickel:

losing the ability to build deeper,

Darryl Stickel:

more resilient relationships.

Darryl Stickel:

So I wish that people could realize

Darryl Stickel:

right from the start that this is a skill

Darryl Stickel:

that they can invest time and energy and

Darryl Stickel:

to get better at.

Darryl Stickel:

Anthony Perl: I love that.

Darryl Stickel:

And, uh, I will go on the back of that

Darryl Stickel:

and say, I think that extends as

Darryl Stickel:

well to when people are starting or

Darryl Stickel:

building personal relationships

Darryl Stickel:

in terms of just interactions on

Darryl Stickel:

a, on a direct messaging service,

Darryl Stickel:

on a LinkedIn for example.

Darryl Stickel:

Don't go straight out and start

Darryl Stickel:

selling your stuff.

Darryl Stickel:

Build a relationship.

Darryl Stickel:

Find something that makes you vulnerable

Darryl Stickel:

or an interest with people so that.

Darryl Stickel:

When it gets to the point of curiosity

Darryl Stickel:

about what you do, there's already a

Darryl Stickel:

trust factor that's built in there.

Darryl Stickel:

Um, you know, you, you really have

Darryl Stickel:

to know that every time someone sends

Darryl Stickel:

a message that says, oh, thank you for

Darryl Stickel:

connecting, here's all the stuff I do

Darryl Stickel:

buy from me, right?

Darryl Stickel:

Like, it just doesn't work.

Darryl Stickel:

It, it doesn't, and I

Darryl Stickel:

tend to respond by saying, you could

Darryl Stickel:

really use some trust training.

Darryl Stickel:

Buy from me.

Anthony Perl:

Yeah, I love, I love it.

Anthony Perl:

And, and just in, and, and I do wanna

Anthony Perl:

mention as well for everyone listening

Anthony Perl:

in that there's a couple of things

Anthony Perl:

that you can get in touch with Daryl on.

Anthony Perl:

Uh, firstly, as we mentioned,

Anthony Perl:

is the Imperfect Cafe, the podcast,

Anthony Perl:

and also there's the book Building

Anthony Perl:

Trust, exceptional Leadership In an

Anthony Perl:

Uncertain World.

Anthony Perl:

Uh, you can learn lots more

Anthony Perl:

from there.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl, I thank you for being so

Anthony Perl:

vulnerable, so generous, and for.

Anthony Perl:

Showing us all how trust can be built,

Anthony Perl:

and, uh, I look forward to having

Anthony Perl:

future discussions with you.

Anthony Perl:

Darryl Stickel: I'd love to stay

Anthony Perl:

connected and thank you for having me.

Anthony Perl:

To everyone listening

Anthony Perl:

in, thank you so much for being a

Anthony Perl:

part of the program this time, and we

Anthony Perl:

look forward to your company next time

Anthony Perl:

on Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Anthony Perl:

Don't forget to subscribe, so

Anthony Perl:

you never miss an episode.

Anthony Perl:

Hey, thanks for listening

Anthony Perl:

to Biz Bytes.

Anthony Perl:

We hope you enjoyed the program.

Anthony Perl:

Don't forget to hit subscribe

Anthony Perl:

so you never miss an episode.

Anthony Perl:

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Anthony Perl:

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Anthony Perl:

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Anthony Perl:

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Anthony Perl:

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Anthony Perl:

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Anthony Perl:

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Anthony Perl:

We look forward to your company

Anthony Perl:

next time on biz.

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About your host

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Anthony Perl

Anthony is an engagement specialist, building a great catalogue of podcasts of his own and helping others get it done for them. Anthony has spent more than 30 years building brands and growing audiences. His experience includes working in the media (2UE, 2GB, Channel Ten, among others) to working in the corporate and not-for-profit sectors, and for the last 13 years as a small business owner with CommTogether. The business covers branding to websites - all things strategic around marketing. Now podcasts have become central to his business, finding a niche in helping people publish their own, making it easy.