Unpacking Imposter Syndrome with Suzanne Mercier

Anthony Perl: Welcome to Biz Bites brought to you by CommTogether, helping businesses like yours build their brand through telling amazing stories to engage and grow audiences on multiple platforms.

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Biz Bites. And I know this is going to be a really interesting journey we're going to go on today. I have with me a A special guest who has spent a lot of time helping women realize their full potential. And there's a lot to unpack with this. So, and I think we're going to learn something regardless of whether you're a, a woman or a, or a man listening, I'm sure we're both going to pick up lots of bits of bits and pieces.

So I'd love to introduce, uh, So, um, Suzanne, uh, Mercier to, um, the program and welcome. And first of all, tell us a little bit about you and your background.

Suzanne Mercier: I thank you so much, Anthony. Um, thank you for having me on the, on your show. It's fabulous. Uh, I come from a marketing and advertising background and, um, I have always been fascinated by the way people think and how that leads through to their behavior.

And, uh, I experienced the imposter syndrome at a, um, about 30 years ago, but I didn't know what it was at that stage. I had been appointed as the first woman on the board of George Patterson Advertising, and I could not figure out why. I was absolutely staggered. The day that it was, that it happened, I thought I was going to get fired.

Uh, and so I had this complete mismatch of the way that I saw myself and the way that other people saw me and I was very embarrassed about it because I just all I could think about was, oh my goodness, I've got them fooled. They think I'm good enough, but I'm not. I have no clue what I'm doing. And there was an element of truth to that because I came from the fast moving consumer goods marketing background and it was, it always sounds like an easy transition to advertising, but it was a little more complex than that.

But having said that, I was well equipped to actually make the shift. So I just didn't see that. And, um, and so I, I sat there on the board for probably about two years. and waited for somebody to figure out that I had nothing of any value to say. And of course, self fulfilling prophecy meant that I was going to be sitting there thinking, struggling for something worthwhile to say and couldn't find it.

So, um, it was, it was a very, uh, challenging time for me. And, um, and it was the first time I'd ever felt that doubt because I had pretty much, um, unsinkable confidence up until that point. And I think what happened was I was just promoted beyond a level that I thought I sat comfortably at. And, and so for me, it was a very tough two years.

Uh, I took things very, very personally when I was given feedback, which is ridiculous because how was I going to grow? Um, I had, um, people that were expecting a lot of me, but hadn't provided any coaching or mentoring or anything like that to help me step up. It was just a different, different time in an, in an agency.

And, uh, uh, to be fair, agencies are probably not the most evolved in terms of the way that they coach and support their people, as you would know. Um, So yeah, I stayed there for about two years and finally I couldn't stand the tension anymore because I really thought that they were going to fire me. So I thought I might leave before they did that and left and set up their own, my own business.

And, um, in hindsight, it was probably one of the silliest things I did only because I did it for the wrong reasons. I did it to show myself and the world that I was good enough. And had I sorted out my schedule, Stuff before that, then that might have been a very different story, but, um, I maintain that running your own business is the best personal development program you'll ever do because you come up against your limitations constantly and, um, and, but you don't have to be in that environment, but that is almost like, um, uh, uh, a more exacerbated version of it.

Uh, so for, for years, and I didn't know what it was that I'd actually experienced, but for years I was trying to run a business pushing and, and, um, and trying to get it to work and, and I just couldn't make it work. And I finally understood what it was. There was something deeply fundamental in the way that I saw myself and the way that I saw They were up here and I was down here and, and I just thought I had them fooled.

So I then found out about the imposter syndrome and, um, I said, Oh my God, they're speaking my language. This is what I'm doing.

Anthony Perl: It's amazing how common that is though, isn't it? It's like, it's a, it's a term that I think it's obviously it's been around for some time, but I feel like. It's gathered a little bit momentum in in the last couple of years.

Maybe that's as a result of a lot of people going out on their own during the COVID period. And subsequently, I'm not sure, but I've definitely seem to have heard a lot more reference to that terminology, and it is a very difficult one for anyone. I mean, I think regardless of whether you're in business or not, you can feel in a position at times that you're going.

Oh, how am I supposed to be here? And if you think about it, I mean, I suppose we have that in life a lot as well, don't we? I mean, it just in, you know, magically you have children and, um, you know, you feel like, are you going to be good enough parent? Um, it sort of starts there as well, doesn't it?

Suzanne Mercier: Yeah, it does.

Absolutely. Well, any context of life. It depends because the thing about it is, and I, when I found out that was what was going on for me, I did a deep dive into this and tried to understand what, what were the dynamics, what was going on. And, and what I, what I realised was that it's different for all of us.

We all have different areas of sensitivity. Uh, and that's as a result of our conditioning. Our poor parents have done their best, as you say. Parenting isn't easy. Uh, and, and we're going to have picked up things that, um, you know, that, that influence the way that we see ourselves. Uh, well intentioned things that have been done by our parents and, and we wind up getting caught up in them and think that that's, that defines us as, as we are.

Uh, like all the things that we're told not to do, all the things that we're, we're, um, we're sort of, in order to keep us safe. So the reason I'm stumbling over is I don't have kids, so I'm trying to imagine what it's like. .

Anthony Perl: Sorry about that. You know, it's, uh, yes. For any, any other parents out there. I know.

Uh, I know, you know what I mean? It's, it's, uh, it's a difficult one because you are, you know, guiding another life. And you're doing your best, but there isn't really an instruction manual for that sort of thing. Absolutely. And as there isn't in, you know, if we turn it back into career progression, it's not in, it's not there either really, is it?

Because particularly these days, I mean, careers are evolving at a rapid rate. What, how I got my career started is not really relevant today. You know, I can tell these stories to my kids, but, but actually there are rules in place that wouldn't allow it. I mean, I basically planted myself. Um, at a TV station and kept showing, I started off on the premise of work experience and after 6 or 7 months, the, the, um, the head of the news division pulled me inside and said, you know, you can't keep showing up like this and, and, uh, um, all the time and, and I said, well, I can't till you give me a job.

And two weeks later, he gave me a job. So, but, but you literally would not be allowed to do that anymore. Um, but times were different. And so there isn't a manual, you know, everything is changing jobs themselves are changing the nature of, of, uh, bringing in technology and all sorts of things. There's changing at such a rapid rate that having a, A manual and and how you survive and I think do you

Suzanne Mercier: any good anyway, because it keeps changing.

You know, the thing about it is that, um, that what what triggers imposter syndrome because we don't feel it all the time. Most of us who feel like imposters at times have times of great confidence. And so each one of us has an area who experienced it, has an area of sensitivity. And so it might be, um, authority.

It might be, um, perfectionism. It might be comparison. It might be all these sorts of things where we, uh, we think that we're supposed to be good enough. And if somebody gives us feedback that says we're not good enough and we take it badly. Uh, and so one of the things is about developing, um, or recognizing what's going on and then developing this internal certainty, like I can't control everything, but I can, and I can believe in myself and I can adjust how I look at things and I can adjust how I interpret things.

And so, um, I've been working for probably about 20 years helping myself firstly get through this. And I developed a whole lot of diagnostics and with a friend of mine developed a game around it. Fun game, very illuminating and developed a whole lot of diagnostics that actually were the way that I had got through it.

And, and I've been using those and they seem to have a pretty positive impact on people. So it just enables them to take that journey and recognize how. How, um, I wouldn't say crazy because I think we're all doing our best, but other people looking at us would say, you're so confident, you're doing a great job.

What do you mean you aren't confident? Because we're very good at hiding it. And so I think that it's about us recognizing that nobody has it right. Um, nobody is perfect. There is no such thing. And it's about recognizing that there's no point in comparison, in comparing ourselves, because we're comparing apples and Rolls Royces, you know, or in some situations, it's just, um, doesn't make any sense.

So it really is about getting a perspective and an understanding, and then turning that on ourselves with a compassionate eye and a compassionate heart and starting to develop that self awareness without judging ourselves and, and, uh, and calling ourselves out for not being good enough.

Anthony Perl: There's a lot of things to explore here, but I just wanted to say one of the, one of the interesting aspects of imposter syndrome, I think, as well, is this, um, lack of understanding or appreciation that we often have as individuals.

Of our own skill, you know, I know there are things that come very easily to me that others would rather jump off a cliff than do and just couldn't do. And sometimes you think, can I really charge someone for this? Like, let's take it, you know, but it's your skill and it's your experiences that have got you there.

And I think that's another aspect to that, to that imposter syndrome as well is that. Um, and I think that prevents a lot of people in, um, in the way they, um, approach others about how much they charge, all those kinds of things, because it's that feeling that, can I really, do you know someone really willing to pay for this?

Yeah,

Suzanne Mercier: absolutely. One of the symptoms of the imposter syndrome is, um, feeling that you're not good enough, looking at your skills and capabilities and seeing that they just fall short. And, and so we're not looking at ourselves properly. We're looking at ourselves judged against a benchmark of perfection.

So we're never going to win on that one. And it's no such thing anyway. And I think what happens is that when we can't see our own value, we also can't be generous to anybody else because we're, it's almost like we're sort of, um, thinking, well, I'm not good enough and I don't want to show that person what I'm like, and it gets in the way of authentic communication.

It gets in the way of genuinely moving forward. Uh, and it has a huge impact on our ability to collaborate, to engage, to, um, to be of service, which I know many of us are moving towards. Um, certainly as we get older, I think the younger generation was born with that in terms of looking for meaning and fulfilment and how they can make a difference.

But when we feel that we're not good enough, it actually is very difficult for us to do that because we don't see the value that we bring. Therefore, we don't see the vehicle that we can use to make a difference.

Anthony Perl: And I think the younger generation have a Um, version of this as well, because they've been brought up in a world of self gratification in terms of, you know, particularly social media.

So it's, you know, looking up why posted something, um, why didn't I get enough likes? Why didn't people share it? And they're constantly checking those, uh, those platforms for that. And I think that that makes it very difficult to have real security around your own abilities at times and and I think that's a, it makes it.

really challenging. And I worry for some of the younger generations that I've got two daughters who I can definitely see that they're, they're worrying constantly about what other people are thinking. The truth is, you know, if we're being honest, nobody's thinking about other people really all that much.

Um, you know, we, we'd like to think, we'd like to think so that everybody out there is caring about us all the time. But the truth is, is that, you know, yes, we'll get some occasional people wondering, but it's not really. about people judging you in that way, yet they're being brought up in a world where that is being assumed.

Suzanne Mercier: Well, that's, that's simply the environment that they're in at the, that generation is in. We've all been through this. It's an external frame of reference, like looking for people outside of us to validate us. Uh, so I'm not good enough unless somebody notices that I am, or somebody, um, you know, sort of tells me how fantastic you got the, you know, you got your name right on the exam or whatever, which is a very mean thing that we all used to say, but I think that, um, I think that it's really about recognising that we need to trust ourselves.

We need to see what we've got put out, put what we have in context, not better than anybody else. But as you alluded to earlier, we've each got our area of genius. And, and so it's about recognising this is what I do really well, that's what you do fabulously, and really starting to be generous with each other and then see how we can work together.

And, um, rather than compete, rather than compare, rather than, um, judge us and others by perfection, because it doesn't exist. I

Anthony Perl: think we're, we're each the product of our own experiences, and that makes us completely unique. So there is no two people that are exactly the same and going to give you exactly the same frame of reference.

Um, might they have the same skill set? Technically, yes. Might the way, will the way that they interact with you be different? Absolutely. And, you know, it's why we choose different trades people or different doctors that, um, you know, the skill set can be the same, but their experiences and the way they, their values translate across can be fundamentally different.

And I think it's, it's having the trust that you deserve. to be out there. It's really interesting that you and I are talking because we, we kind of on, we're on the same path, but a little bit different sides of the spectrum, because you're trying to get people over that. And my, um, you know, part of what I'm doing is in terms of podcasts is helping more people realise the individual brilliances of, of people.

And so you've got to get them to that point, of course, where they feel. Validated enough to do that. And then we come out and say, well, you know, really, you should be having your own podcast and talking to people about it and relaying that experience and sharing that education and content and things with people because it is a, it is a very important journey for people to go on if they want to get involved.

Suzanne Mercier: And they can't be what they can't see. They can't actually change what they're doing. If they don't know that there is a pathway forward. Absolutely. Look, I think it's a fascinating journey. I actually think it's the human journey. The imposter syndrome has been labeled. It's been put on it. Um, and I know that it's kind of like a badge of honour at the moment, especially in STEM industries.

And that's because it's got a, um, a double bind. Like I, I, I, I'm, um, I can do this. And I have to be successful in order to experience the imposter syndrome. Therefore, if I tell people that I've got imposter syndrome, that means vicariously, I'm telling them that I'm successful. It's like, it's crazy. But I think that, um, I think for us to be, to be really looking at, um, who we are and how we show up is a great opportunity and a great gift that we can give ourselves, as you say, for them to feel confident enough to chain or to, to share their story.

Um, for me in a business environment, it's for them to feel confident enough that To ask for a big opportunity or to ask to be paid what they're worth, to go after a new client, to, um, uh, to put themselves forward on a stage or on a podcast or something like that. So the things that, that it takes confidence to do.

And when we let go of perfection, we realize that there is no one answer. My answer is different to somebody else's and, and that's the richness of the way that we all communicate, isn't

Anthony Perl: it? Absolutely. And, and, and I think that that's, to me, there's also a balance in that, that I re I think part of the reason why.

It's become a bigger thing is this whole idea of tall poppy syndrome as well, because we're all worried about that. We are, are we sitting at the, are we sitting at the top there and someone's just going to cut us down anyway. So we sort of take an early, early stab at it and then say, well, we must be an imposter in the first place.

Um, you know, I think that there's, there are those things that happen out there. Um, and and they've and sometimes I think I worry and I'd love your perspective on this that by putting a label on it, it actually makes it more common and something more to give into rather than necessarily attacking the problem.

Suzanne Mercier: Yes, I think so. I think that, um, it's a, it's a badge and I say it's a badge of honour in some industries because as I said, there's that whole thing of I'm, I'm, I'm successful. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to deny it. So there's that part of it. But I think what's really interesting and I was actually asked that question on social media this morning about tall poppy syndrome.

And, uh, and tall poppy syndrome is the Australian way that it shows up because imposter syndrome is global. And apparently, I haven't seen any research, but apparently it's, um, it's common all throughout the world, developed world, whatever. And it's, as I said before, I started to, but I think I've got sidetracked, talking about this is the way that we develop as human beings.

So, you know, we, we, we get to the edge of our comfort zone, and then we have an opportunity to take our, our learning and the way that we show up to a new level. And, and then we sort of get comfortable with that, and then we have a chance to push it out again and push it out again. And if we feel that getting to that feeling of, Um, hey, uh, I need to change something.

It depends on how we interpret that feeling. If we interpret it as I'm not good enough, then we'll zip back inside our comfort zone. But if we actually interpret it as that tap on the shoulder saying time to do something different to grow, which is a more confident response, then that's when we grow.

Anthony Perl: Talk to me about that, about growth, because it is one thing to say, okay, imposter syndrome exists. I think we can probably all agree to that. And I think we can all agree that we've all suffered through that at some point or another and to different, to different degrees. But what makes, I suppose, someone in the first place want to come and seek help?

And then secondly, what can you actually do to work through that? through it because it's obviously is quite a journey. It's not a, it's not a, I'm sure it's not a quick one, one session kind of idea. And it's not something that is going to be the same for everybody either. Is

Suzanne Mercier: it? Right. Um, no, absolutely. Um, what tends to, um, to happen in terms of us needing to, getting a tap on the shoulder to seek some help, is that we might get so frustrated.

Somebody might say something to us, or we get some, somebody with an external mirror that says, what are you doing this to yourself for? Um, and, uh, or we sit down in a contemplative frame of mind and think, I've been beating my head against the wall with this organisation for however many years. I'm not getting anywhere.

I'm trying to figure out why. And so those kinds of things, um, and many more just are just the trigger for us to start thinking about it. If we really want to create something different in our lives and we keep creating the same thing, then there's got to be a question that we ask somewhere along the way.

So there's that, but, um, what it takes to actually, um, work on it is to First of all, recognise it and recognise the cost of it, because when we feel that we're not good enough, we don't go for opportunities, we don't ask for what we're, what is fair pay for what we're worth, we don't take feedback well, we don't engage to the way that we could, we don't contribute to innovation and all those sorts of things, either for our own business or for an organisation that we work for.

So there's a huge cost. And many of them go straight through to bottom line. There's a personal cost as well. And the longer that we feel that we're not good enough and we play that out, then the harder it can be to move past it. But I was asked about, um, two years ago to put together a program, a 14 day program and to get past the imposter syndrome.

And this particular person who was in the media said, can you help me get past imposter syndrome in 14 days? And I laughed and I said, I don't think so. But I said, if you're willing to do something different every day, maybe. And, uh, and so I created this program and it was like trying to find the piece of wool that you pull and all the knitting comes undone.

And, uh, and it feels, uh, that, that I'm getting some amazing results with it. People are moving through, like, do they get through it in one go? No, absolutely not. Um, they, they have tools and things like that, that help them when, when they experience that feeling coming up again, it's like, oh, okay, I know what's going on.

This is what I do. So yeah, it's a lifelong journey because you've probably heard that dreadful expression about all the layers of the onion. Yes, which is frustrating, but you know, you get one level handled and, and then the next level comes up. And I can say honestly, that things that happened five years ago that I was dealing with, they're not even on my, on my radar now.

So you just get to the next level and to the next level. And that's our journey. It's just that we're manifesting it in a work environment or other areas of our lives.

Anthony Perl: Yeah, and look, I do want to point out to listeners that, um, uh, if you're interested in, uh, hearing more about how you flip the switch on some of these things and getting some tips, you're going to have to, uh, get into the bonus content that we'll have.

Um, so I encourage everyone to follow the links in the show notes and you'll be able to access that later on. But. But now I wanted to just, um, I suppose flip the switch a little bit on you and turn it around and find out what's what's motivating you because I obviously we know the years you said the story about George Patterson, but take me back to your original journey.

I love to hear about where people started out. What was the what was the career goal? When you first started, um, going down that path after school, was it to get into advertising? Was that the original goal? Where did it, where did it

Suzanne Mercier: come from? Um, I was one of those people who other people lifted me up to the next level, to the next level.

And I didn't know I had no, no, I obviously had a choice as to whether I accepted it or not. And I, all I would think was, oh, okay, that's interesting. Let me give it a go. And that's why I say when I got to that level where I suddenly felt like I really wasn't good enough, that was such a shock to me because I hadn't had that before.

But I didn't actually and actively plan my career. So I was headhunted into marketing. I was working, I studied marketing, and then I was working at a law firm. And then I moved into marketing at Schwarzkopf. And then I moved from Schwarzkopf to George Patz. And, um, and, And I was a material for marketing as well.

And at George Pat's, I learned a different side of the coin. And that was where I was. I loved it. I loved the idea of getting into people's minds and understanding what was motivating them or turning them off from a particular situation or purchase choice. Um, and so then for me, it was a natural step beyond that into, okay, so I'm just fascinated by minds.

I'm fascinated by who we are and how we show up and how much potential we've got that we just don't see. So I fell into my career, to be honest.

Anthony Perl: And so what was it, what's the influence of the family like? Because what gets, what drives you to that idea of getting into people's minds? Is that something that comes from, from parents or other family members?

Not really.

Suzanne Mercier: My father was in the military, um, and my mother was a small business owner. Um, no, I don't think so. I think I just had some personal stuff I had to sort out. And so that was what motivated me.

Anthony Perl: It's really interesting when that happens because often it is the journey from the parents, but it, but it is also very interesting when a journey is not that, and it's a very personal one that, uh, that you take in that fascination with how people, uh, respond in certain situations.

And I agree with that in, in, um, in that sort of marketing advertising space. Um, of, uh, remember a discussion with a friend of mine a few years ago who had studied marketing, but actually is a lawyer now. And. It's really interesting that the converse, how he actually couldn't, you know, I remember we discussed an ad at one point, and I was like, oh, that's the reason for the ad is the XYZ.

And he's like, looking at me going, oh, wow. That's why I'm a lawyer and not in advertising. Um, and I think it is that fascination of how you get into people's minds. And, and I suppose that's the question too is, is people come to work with you. Um, firstly, Why the focus on women? And secondly, I suppose, um, what does that look like when people start working with you, um, for what sort of period of time and what are the sort of results that they come

Suzanne Mercier: to expect?

I do work with men as well. I used to speak at a lot of conferences and the women would be very overt in saying, yeah, that's me, that's me, that's me. And the guys would come to me when there was nobody else around. So I figured that it was easier for me to contact women or to be connected with women. But also I could relate to their journey more because the way that men and women experience imposter syndrome is different.

The way that, the way that men and women experience imposter syndrome is different. Uh, and that's a whole other story. Um, but I think that, um, I've totally lost the plot. Sorry.

Anthony Perl: That's all right. Just, uh, I'll just, um, you can, you can answer that question again. And then, uh, what basically all I was asking was, um, What's the, you know, why women, why?

Yeah. Why the focus

Suzanne Mercier: on women? Okay. Thank you. Um, I think because that was what I experienced and, um, and women have, um, uh, I guess it impacts women differently. Men, um, have learned. very young and I'm grossly generalising to, um, to, to fake confidence if they don't feel it. Uh, and so they can be quite bolshy and they can put themselves forward and they can get all the benefits of that.

Whereas most women, and I'm grossly generalising, will actually, um, they, if they feel that they're not good enough, they won't put themselves forward. So for women, there's a much bigger impact on their career. For women, there's a much bigger impact on their career and their opportunities. And I also feel that women, I'm just looking at the, the way that life works out for men and women.

And, uh, and again, it's grossly generalising, but a lot of women wind up supporting themselves and their kids. And, and, and I would love to see them confident and, and able to, um, to do that without, um, without too much worry. But I just want people to see their own value. I love working with men. Uh, and, and when they come to me, they, um, it's a little more challenging for them and me to get down into the meaty stuff because they're not used to talking about their emotions.

I'm very happy to have that conversation. But for women, I think they come and they're ready to own up to it. And, and probably, probably too much if that's the case, you know, because they tell. When they go for, um, for performance reviews, they say, well, I did this quite well, but oh gosh, I could do so much better on this one.

And I could have done better on that. And I, and they don't understand that they've directionalised somebody's thinking to what they're not doing well, rather than what they are doing well. So, so many different, um, aspects to that, but essentially I'd love to see women stronger, um, and more confident and able to take their place without being bulky, without being, um, you know, guys in skirts, um, at like really coming from their own power.

Anthony Perl: Well, so I suppose the question that I have for you, which I like to ask all of my guests a version of this, which is really what is the, um, switch on turning point moment that or the heart moment is some people like to say, uh, that clients have when they start working with you that you wish more people would.

know that we're going to get?

Suzanne Mercier: Uh, they understand that they have the power to change it. They've been telling themselves a story for however long and thinking that they were at the effect of what's going on. And when they understand how we create our mindset and, uh, and all the influences on that with no blame, no judgment, just understanding it's information, then they realise, Oh, I can actually change that.

I, I can see that differently or I can understand why I thought that. Um, I mean, I still get epiphanies. Um, I, I was the other day saying to somebody, I'm so resilient and I'm so optimistic and I got this blinding flash of the obvious. If I didn't feel I had to struggle so much, why would I need to be resilient and optimistic?

So it's just, you're constantly looking at, um, not constantly, but regularly checking in or you've got a level of your intuition tuned into, um, what's going on and, and how you're tracking and, and what's, what's supporting you and what's holding

Anthony Perl: you back. Fantastic. I love all of this. I know we could talk for a lot longer about all of this and I hope everyone listening has got something out of it.

Uh, for those that want to get a little bit more out of it, you're going to have to, uh, sign up for the, uh, for the bonus bit of content. And, uh, we're going to, uh, release a few tips on, uh, on how you do flip that switch. But for now, I just wanted to thank you so much, Suzanne, for being a very generous Guest on the program and taking us on that journey and, and hopefully a few people nodding their heads as they're listening into the podcast going, yes, I've suffered that imposter syndrome and yes, I need to do something about it.

Suzanne Mercier: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Anthony. Lovely talking with you.

Anthony Perl: And of course, don't forget to stay tuned for the next episode of Biz Bytes. Biz Bytes is brought to you by comm together for all your marketing needs, so you can build your brand, engage audiences on multiple platforms. Go to comm together.com au, follow the links to book an appointment for a free consultation.