Anthony Perl: 00:00:00

Architectural Thought Leadership Business

Anthony Perl: 00:00:01

Lessons from Design Excellence.

Anthony Perl: 00:00:04

Welcome to Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Anthony Perl: 00:00:06

I'm Anthony Perl.

Anthony Perl: 00:00:08

In this episode, you're gonna discover how the principles of world class

Anthony Perl: 00:00:12

architecture can transform your business approach and leadership style.

Anthony Perl: 00:00:17

Kevin Kennon is an amazing expert in what he does.

Anthony Perl: 00:00:22

While he's currently also the CEO of Beyond zero dedicated development

Anthony Perl: 00:00:26

consultants who are building zero carbon luxury eco resorts worldwide,

Anthony Perl: 00:00:32

he's won many awards for projects like Barclays North American headquarters.

Anthony Perl: 00:00:36

The Rodin Museum in Seoul.

Anthony Perl: 00:00:38

He's working all around the world.

Anthony Perl: 00:00:40

He's got some invaluable insights on team communication, vision,

Anthony Perl: 00:00:43

execution, and blending technology with creativity as well as the value of

Anthony Perl: 00:00:50

relationships, particularly with clients.

Anthony Perl: 00:00:53

This is an episode of Biz Bites.

Anthony Perl: 00:00:55

You don't want to miss some really surprising insights from someone.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:00

Who has done some amazing things around the world?

Anthony Perl: 00:01:03

Sit back and enjoy this episode of Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:13

Welcome everyone to another episode of Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:18

I have a different kind of thought leader joining me today.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:21

I don't think we've actually had someone in the architect space on the program

Anthony Perl: 00:01:26

before, but there's a very good reason we are gonna be exploring all of this today.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:30

So bear with us.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:31

But first of all, Kevin, welcome to the program.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:33

Thank you,

Kevin Kennon: 00:01:33

Anthony.

Kevin Kennon: 00:01:34

It's a real pleasure to be here.

Kevin Kennon: 00:01:36

I enjoy talking to people all over the world and the great thing about these

Kevin Kennon: 00:01:40

podcasts is it brings you close to home.

Kevin Kennon: 00:01:43

And infinite number of miles has become inches.

Kevin Kennon: 00:01:47

And so it's perfect to be here, even though we're at

Kevin Kennon: 00:01:51

completely different places.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:54

It is and it's funny, isn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:01:55

Because we're going to I'm gonna get you to actually, I'll really get

Anthony Perl: 00:01:59

you to introduce yourself properly first, and then I've got a, I've

Anthony Perl: 00:02:01

got something I wanna pick up on, on just what you were saying then.

Anthony Perl: 00:02:04

Great.

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:05

Terrific.

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:06

I'm, I am, as you said, I'm an architect.

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:09

I've been an architects for quite a while now.

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:12

And I've had a, I'd a pretty amazing career up until this point.

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:17

You never know where it could go, but you, I, I've been blessed and having designed

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:22

many buildings all over the world.

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:24

I've traveled quite a great deal.

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:26

And the reason the thing that's getting me going these days is

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:31

my latest business, which is actually in real estate primarily.

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:35

And I have a background in that as well.

Kevin Kennon: 00:02:37

It's specifically in the area of luxury hospitality.

Anthony Perl: 00:02:42

We are going to get into that in a moment, but the thing that I

Anthony Perl: 00:02:44

wanted to alluded to when you're coming back was you just casually dropped there

Anthony Perl: 00:02:47

about how nice it is with podcasting and being able to go all over the world.

Anthony Perl: 00:02:52

And what's really interesting is, and I hadn't thought about it till you

Anthony Perl: 00:02:55

said it, is that, the great thing about podcasting is that people can be in

Anthony Perl: 00:03:00

a space together, but not together.

Anthony Perl: 00:03:03

You can create.

Anthony Perl: 00:03:05

An illusion in some respects, and you can create a closeness in other respects.

Anthony Perl: 00:03:11

And I think that's something that's really, I guess hadn't thought about

Anthony Perl: 00:03:15

it till then very akin to what you try and do in architecture, isn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:03:18

Absolutely.

Anthony Perl: 00:03:19

In a very physical way.

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:20

Absolutely.

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:20

What a lot of people and just to be clarify that even more, I'm a

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:24

design architect and that means we're the kind of point of the

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:29

tip of the spear of any project.

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:32

And most of my projects are.

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:34

Large, complex, involving hundreds of millions, if not billions of

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:38

dollars and thousands of people.

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:41

So usually just starts just as we're doing right now with the conversation

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:45

or with a client about what it is they're looking for or, what kind of

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:49

ideas they have, what their goals are.

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:52

And I like to do a deep dive in that.

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:54

So telling and hearing people's story.

Kevin Kennon: 00:03:58

And being able to amplify that story and turn that into physical

Kevin Kennon: 00:04:03

reality from nothing really.

Kevin Kennon: 00:04:05

Just the conversation like we're having right now is what I've

Kevin Kennon: 00:04:09

been doing my whole career.

Anthony Perl: 00:04:12

Isn't that interesting?

Anthony Perl: 00:04:13

Because we have.

Anthony Perl: 00:04:14

We do very different things.

Anthony Perl: 00:04:15

Podcasting is what I do, architecture is what you do, but

Anthony Perl: 00:04:18

yet there's a very common ground.

Anthony Perl: 00:04:19

It's that listening and extracting stories and trying to amplify as

Anthony Perl: 00:04:24

you say, those stories and you do it in a very physical way.

Anthony Perl: 00:04:28

The time period of course that from you getting from.

Anthony Perl: 00:04:31

First meeting and extracting stories to actually implementing and being completed,

Anthony Perl: 00:04:36

I imagine is can be years in some

Kevin Kennon: 00:04:38

cases.

Kevin Kennon: 00:04:38

Almost always, even for the smallest of projects.

Kevin Kennon: 00:04:42

You'd be surprised at how long they take.

Kevin Kennon: 00:04:44

You do them right.

Kevin Kennon: 00:04:45

You could certainly do 'em in a fly by nine kind of way, but that's not who

Kevin Kennon: 00:04:50

I am and that's not who my clients is.

Anthony Perl: 00:04:54

So tell me a little bit about.

Anthony Perl: 00:04:56

The, some of the things that you've been doing as far as architecture is concerned.

Anthony Perl: 00:05:00

'cause I know you've won many awards over the years and many of the things

Anthony Perl: 00:05:04

that you've been involved with are high profile the, particularly, and, I

Anthony Perl: 00:05:08

imagine not just New York, but around the country that you've done places

Anthony Perl: 00:05:13

that people would recognize or would be able to go past and have a look at.

Anthony Perl: 00:05:17

So tell me a little bit about some of those things that you've been involved

Anthony Perl: 00:05:20

with that you're perhaps most proud of.

Kevin Kennon: 00:05:22

It run, it runs the gamut.

Kevin Kennon: 00:05:24

I've been involved in museums design houses skyscrapers, I like

Kevin Kennon: 00:05:31

to say I've done everything from the tallest buildings in the world to

Kevin Kennon: 00:05:34

the smallest bathrooms in the world.

Kevin Kennon: 00:05:37

And everything in between.

Kevin Kennon: 00:05:39

And in New York all over Europe, middle East, south America, not Australia.

Kevin Kennon: 00:05:47

Funny but just about everywhere else.

Kevin Kennon: 00:05:50

In Asia I've done a lot.

Kevin Kennon: 00:05:51

So having that kind of broad cultural perspective.

Kevin Kennon: 00:05:57

Is also something that I feel is I've learned over the years and continue to be

Kevin Kennon: 00:06:02

fascinated about is trying to understand the differences in culture and the context

Kevin Kennon: 00:06:07

with where, where I put these buildings.

Anthony Perl: 00:06:13

Yeah, I think it's actually quite interesting, isn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:06:14

Because culturally there's a difference in how we use space and how we

Anthony Perl: 00:06:19

perceive the need for space, isn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:06:22

It's and that can happen based on whether you're in the city or

Anthony Perl: 00:06:25

outside of the city, but also, the, the volume of the population in any

Anthony Perl: 00:06:30

given city and the expectations.

Anthony Perl: 00:06:32

You walk into an apartment.

Anthony Perl: 00:06:34

In different parts of the world and they will feel quite different.

Kevin Kennon: 00:06:38

And they have different expectations depending on how they live.

Kevin Kennon: 00:06:41

A lot of Asian sort of residential work involves multiple kitchens

Kevin Kennon: 00:06:47

different kitchens as well as, open air kitchens and enclosed kitchens,

Kevin Kennon: 00:06:52

depending on what it is they're cooking.

Kevin Kennon: 00:06:54

Just as an example also.

Kevin Kennon: 00:06:56

A difference in terms of the family structure, extended

Kevin Kennon: 00:06:59

families versus nuclear family.

Kevin Kennon: 00:07:03

So all of these factors, which, it's not unlike if you're doing any kind

Kevin Kennon: 00:07:07

of strategic analysis for business understanding who your customers are.

Kevin Kennon: 00:07:12

Our customers are both the client but also the people who are gonna

Kevin Kennon: 00:07:16

occupy those spaces that we want.

Anthony Perl: 00:07:20

And that's a really interesting concept because it's how

Anthony Perl: 00:07:25

do you actually get out of the way?

Anthony Perl: 00:07:27

And I ask this because, it's a common problem with a lot of businesses, right?

Anthony Perl: 00:07:31

Because you would come in as a, firstly, as a, as an architect designer, where

Anthony Perl: 00:07:35

you can imagine certain things and there's a vision and there'd be stuff

Anthony Perl: 00:07:39

that you have always wanted to do and to try, and you think this would be

Anthony Perl: 00:07:42

the ideal space for it mixed in with.

Anthony Perl: 00:07:46

What is the vision that the client has mixed in?

Anthony Perl: 00:07:49

What is the end user going to have, and how do you actually balance

Anthony Perl: 00:07:53

those three very different audiences?

Kevin Kennon: 00:07:56

I'm an, first of all, I'm an avid learner and an avid traveler.

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:00

And so I, a lot of our architects when they travel, they go

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:04

and look at architecture.

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:06

I go and look at people, I like look at how they, what?

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:10

What motivates them, how they communicate, how they interact

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:14

in cities or in the country.

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:17

And I like to say to my clients and anybody who wants to listen

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:21

to me that I, every project I start with a blank sheet of paper.

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:25

Of course I bring to it, my experiences and everything else I've learned,

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:30

but I think it really helped brain.

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:32

Our thinking, and I say to, to my team, again, team involves hundreds of people.

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:38

But I challenged the team to think, start with a blank seat of paper as if they've

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:44

never done it before in their lives.

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:46

And it yields incredible results.

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:50

Because you're right from the very beginning, you're having to not quite

Kevin Kennon: 00:08:55

make it up as you go along, but you're challenged to start from a place of

Kevin Kennon: 00:09:01

humility, first of all, which I think is important, but also one of just candor.

Kevin Kennon: 00:09:06

And I encourage anybody I work with, that there's no wrong answer.

Kevin Kennon: 00:09:11

There's no right or wrong way to do anything.

Kevin Kennon: 00:09:14

But we'll discover ultimately what that story is.

Kevin Kennon: 00:09:18

And so it tends to be.

Kevin Kennon: 00:09:20

Contrary to what many people believe about my profession.

Kevin Kennon: 00:09:24

It's a very collaborative enterprise

Anthony Perl: 00:09:29

and I think that's something a lot of businesses can

Anthony Perl: 00:09:30

learn from because you actually alluded to something in there as well.

Anthony Perl: 00:09:33

That's really an important step in between those three audiences is you

Anthony Perl: 00:09:38

have team and you have a large team.

Anthony Perl: 00:09:40

So how do you actually convey a vision?

Anthony Perl: 00:09:44

Is a shared vision initially between yourself and the client to a team

Anthony Perl: 00:09:50

who can then carry it forward.

Anthony Perl: 00:09:51

Because that's a typical problem in any business, is sharing a vision and

Anthony Perl: 00:09:55

actually carrying that vision through.

Kevin Kennon: 00:09:58

And just as there's we start every project with a clean sheet of paper.

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:02

We start every project exploring different ways in which we can.

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:08

Tell that story and begin to shape that story.

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:11

Sometimes it's sitting around sketchings, sometimes it's just

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:15

sitting around and discussing.

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:18

And usually it's a combination of multiple tools.

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:21

And I've been an early adopter of using technology, advanced technology

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:28

to realize that there are ideas.

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:31

So now fortunately, we have the ability to quickly go from

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:35

a sketch to almost reality.

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:38

We virtually within seconds whereas it used to take us days if not weeks and

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:46

months, to get anything close to being able to convey in a even semi realistic

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:53

manner so that our clients can understand.

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:56

And get that feedback.

Kevin Kennon: 00:10:57

So it's, the world has changed dramatically.

Kevin Kennon: 00:11:00

And now to ai even more

Anthony Perl: 00:11:02

it's interesting, isn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:11:03

Because that whole kind of adage of try before you buy scenario, which, you could

Anthony Perl: 00:11:08

take a car for a test drive, you could, there's lots of things that you can do.

Anthony Perl: 00:11:11

Sometimes there are samples that you can have for for people's work

Anthony Perl: 00:11:15

if it's a more of a service based.

Anthony Perl: 00:11:17

But when it comes to your profession where there's, a significant

Anthony Perl: 00:11:21

investment and a significant period of time before that's imagined.

Anthony Perl: 00:11:25

Being able to do that, allowing people to be in a virtual version of a

Anthony Perl: 00:11:30

space to fully understand it is huge.

Anthony Perl: 00:11:34

And it, I imagine it helps narrow down some of the problem areas

Anthony Perl: 00:11:38

that people might encounter.

Kevin Kennon: 00:11:40

Yeah it's it is a perennial challenge, let's put it that way.

Kevin Kennon: 00:11:44

And in terms of what how we are able to.

Kevin Kennon: 00:11:47

Convey.

Kevin Kennon: 00:11:48

And I'd say it, it's really a trust building exercise as much as anything,

Kevin Kennon: 00:11:55

sometimes it's our profession's bewildering to people and I'm, I

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:00

am I guess I've really dedicated most of my career to simplifying

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:05

that and speaking in plain language so that anybody can understand.

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:09

I really, avoid jargon as much as possible.

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:13

And just like anything, people understand in different ways and it's my job

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:20

to help them overcome those hurdles and whatever tools I have available.

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:25

Worsely, I have even more tools these days.

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:28

It's time well spent and and because of.

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:31

Because the, what we're trying to do here, as you said, there's

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:35

a lot of risk involved and I'm in the risk mitigating business.

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:40

I, I want before people pay enormous amounts of money

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:47

in order to build something.

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:48

I'd like to think that we have worked through most of the problems we're

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:52

likely to counter way ahead time through a kind of digital simulation or even.

Kevin Kennon: 00:12:59

Just an emotional connection.

Kevin Kennon: 00:13:02

So that there's confidence that we're going to, we always run into problems.

Kevin Kennon: 00:13:07

There's no job I've ever been involved with, or there aren't gonna be problems.

Kevin Kennon: 00:13:12

What you want are the right people who can solve those problems in the right

Kevin Kennon: 00:13:16

way and early enough in the process.

Kevin Kennon: 00:13:19

So instead of costing millions of dollars, it might just cost thousands of dollars.

Anthony Perl: 00:13:26

We hope you're enjoying listening to the Biz Buys Podcast.

Anthony Perl: 00:13:29

Have you ever thought about having your own podcast, one for your

Anthony Perl: 00:13:32

business where your brilliance is exposed to the rest of the world?

Anthony Perl: 00:13:36

Come talk to us at podcasts Done for you.

Anthony Perl: 00:13:39

That's what we're all about.

Anthony Perl: 00:13:40

We even offer a service where I'll anchor the program for you, so all

Anthony Perl: 00:13:44

you have to do is show up for a conversation, but don't worry about that.

Anthony Perl: 00:13:48

We will do everything to design a program that suits you.

Anthony Perl: 00:13:53

From the strategy right through to publishing and of

Anthony Perl: 00:13:56

course, helping you share it.

Anthony Perl: 00:13:58

So come talk to us podcast done for you.com au details

Anthony Perl: 00:14:03

in the show notes below.

Anthony Perl: 00:14:04

Now back to Biz Bites.

Kevin Kennon: 00:14:07

We're going to, we always run into problems.

Kevin Kennon: 00:14:09

There's no job I've ever been involved with whether there

Kevin Kennon: 00:14:12

aren't gonna be problems.

Kevin Kennon: 00:14:14

What you want are the right people who can solve those problems in the right

Kevin Kennon: 00:14:18

way and early enough in the process.

Kevin Kennon: 00:14:20

So instead of costing millions of dollars, it might just cost thousands of dollars.

Anthony Perl: 00:14:28

And I think that's the interesting thing too, isn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:14:30

That the, I imagine that people that are working with you, that as your

Anthony Perl: 00:14:35

clients, there are many of them that would have zero experience as far as.

Anthony Perl: 00:14:40

A building project is concerned.

Anthony Perl: 00:14:43

So understanding those little things.

Anthony Perl: 00:14:45

I, personally on a much smaller scale than what you build in, we're in

Anthony Perl: 00:14:48

the process of completing a house.

Anthony Perl: 00:14:50

And here's a fascinating little problem that we, I love houses for you.

Anthony Perl: 00:14:54

I love how, sorry.

Kevin Kennon: 00:14:56

I think houses are it, they're really almost

Kevin Kennon: 00:15:00

essential in what we do.

Kevin Kennon: 00:15:02

Because it, nothing is more.

Kevin Kennon: 00:15:06

Other than your marriage or your life or nothing is more intimate if

Kevin Kennon: 00:15:11

you think about it than your house.

Kevin Kennon: 00:15:13

And you, everybody has their own way they wanna live, and it's my

Kevin Kennon: 00:15:17

job to help you achieve that goal.

Anthony Perl: 00:15:21

And it's interesting too because with the amount of

Anthony Perl: 00:15:23

tools that are available and the things that you can do, some of the

Anthony Perl: 00:15:26

little problems shouldn't occur.

Anthony Perl: 00:15:28

And I think that's one of the interesting little sidelight for us.

Anthony Perl: 00:15:30

We have a walk-in pantry and we have shelves that were put into that pantry,

Anthony Perl: 00:15:36

but nobody thought about how you actually get the fridge, which is supposed

Anthony Perl: 00:15:39

to be in that pantry as well in, and now we've got shelves and we've got

Anthony Perl: 00:15:44

a space for the fridge, but no way of actually getting the fridge in there.

Anthony Perl: 00:15:47

And.

Anthony Perl: 00:15:48

And, but these are the things that, you know, as you as and I, not

Anthony Perl: 00:15:52

asking you to solve that problem.

Anthony Perl: 00:15:53

We know how to solve it, but it's more that, these are the little things that

Anthony Perl: 00:15:57

can happen whereby if you don't have a, have some sort of vision for it.

Anthony Perl: 00:16:03

All we had was a flap drawing of a, rectangular space and it'd be

Anthony Perl: 00:16:08

nice to have some shelves here.

Anthony Perl: 00:16:09

So that looked good, but nobody actually went.

Anthony Perl: 00:16:12

How do you.

Anthony Perl: 00:16:13

Navigate and utilize that space properly.

Anthony Perl: 00:16:16

And I think that's where, technology and bringing that into into

Anthony Perl: 00:16:21

your business has a huge value.

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:23

It's funny you should say that.

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:24

It was one of the first real world problems I had as a young architect.

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:29

We designed this luxury Park Avenue penthouse apartments.

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:34

And the client had wanted this particular piece of furniture.

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:39

And we specified the furniture, we did all this stuff.

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:42

We built the apartment, and then we realized we couldn't

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:45

get it through the front door.

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:47

And you have to experience that once we ended up having a hoisted on the

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:51

outside, which actually is very common in New York City, that's how they get

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:54

a lot of piano or books in apartments.

Kevin Kennon: 00:16:58

But yeah, you just have to experience that kind of thing once

Kevin Kennon: 00:17:01

and you go, oh, you know what, no.

Kevin Kennon: 00:17:04

You really have to swallow everything through it.

Kevin Kennon: 00:17:08

It, there's a lot of detail involved in that.

Kevin Kennon: 00:17:11

And I am a very stickler for detail as most of my clients are.

Kevin Kennon: 00:17:17

And we're spending that kind of money and you're working that hard at something.

Kevin Kennon: 00:17:22

You, you don't wanna make a, what would I call a rookie mistake,

Kevin Kennon: 00:17:25

right from the beginning.

Anthony Perl: 00:17:28

And it's interesting that you say that because again I, I want

Anthony Perl: 00:17:30

this to, for people listening out there that this isn't just about architecture.

Anthony Perl: 00:17:34

This is about, business and how we operate.

Anthony Perl: 00:17:37

And paying attention to those details can make all of the difference because

Anthony Perl: 00:17:42

it's easy as well to, for a client to assume that you'll be on top of

Anthony Perl: 00:17:47

something and it's easy for you to assume that a client will know this.

Anthony Perl: 00:17:51

And that's often how the mistakes happen, right?

Kevin Kennon: 00:17:54

Yeah.

Kevin Kennon: 00:17:54

You have to as the leader, I, my job is not just to communicate to the client and

Kevin Kennon: 00:18:01

understand what their needs and desires are but also I have to communicate to my

Kevin Kennon: 00:18:07

team effectively and make sure that the same diligence that I am responsible for

Kevin Kennon: 00:18:13

and I'm communicating, that client gets transferred to every member on the team.

Kevin Kennon: 00:18:19

So that you're always building in sort of checks and balances and instilling

Kevin Kennon: 00:18:24

in everybody a sense of quality.

Anthony Perl: 00:18:28

Let me ask you how you do that as well.

Anthony Perl: 00:18:30

And there are other areas I wanna explore, but I'm really fascinated by

Anthony Perl: 00:18:33

that process of working with the team and conveying messages because we actually

Anthony Perl: 00:18:39

had a recent episode of Biz Bias.

Anthony Perl: 00:18:41

We were talking to a couple of fighter pilots.

Anthony Perl: 00:18:44

And that sort of precision communication and debriefing is a huge element

Anthony Perl: 00:18:49

of what they do, and it's what they're trying to teach businesses.

Anthony Perl: 00:18:52

So I'm actually fascinated about how you do that.

Anthony Perl: 00:18:55

How do you actually convey not just the vision that we talked about, but

Anthony Perl: 00:18:59

then the preciseness of the detail that needs to happen to that, to a team

Anthony Perl: 00:19:04

that gets passed down the line, right?

Anthony Perl: 00:19:06

Because.

Anthony Perl: 00:19:07

I imagine you don't, do you talk to everybody who's

Anthony Perl: 00:19:10

gonna be involved in One Go?

Anthony Perl: 00:19:12

Is it a step-by-step process?

Anthony Perl: 00:19:14

How do you manage that?

Kevin Kennon: 00:19:15

Yeah, because it's not just architects that I'm involved with.

Kevin Kennon: 00:19:18

I'm involved with engineers.

Kevin Kennon: 00:19:21

I'm involved with in some cases with landscape architects a whole range

Kevin Kennon: 00:19:26

of consultants and you have to.

Kevin Kennon: 00:19:30

It helps having worked with different teams before.

Kevin Kennon: 00:19:34

So you build in that trust, it all starts with you.

Kevin Kennon: 00:19:38

If you're leading by example and you're a conveying the accordance of being

Kevin Kennon: 00:19:45

diligent at the same time, we run very tight deadlines and we have to have firm

Kevin Kennon: 00:19:53

deliverables, so you can't miss deadlines.

Kevin Kennon: 00:19:55

But at the same time, you wanna try and minimize mistakes.

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:00

So that's continues to be a challenge that will continue to be a challenge.

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:04

I do think AI can help with that.

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:07

I think the problem with AI is that I see in this, especially in younger

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:13

architects that I work with, they, and they're too willing to trust ai.

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:19

It's almost.

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:20

Too much of a shortcut and AI doesn't really work unless someone is checking it.

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:26

And I worry that my generation isn't gonna be around that much longer.

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:31

And so I have some concerns about, how do we instill that into our

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:36

agents or AI agents and making sure that I suppose we'll develop agents.

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:43

Who check other agents and somehow that's gonna work itself through the system.

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:47

But I would never want to take the human factor out of it for, at the end of the

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:51

day there has to be judgment in that.

Kevin Kennon: 00:20:55

And a good judgment doesn't nearly tongue from knowing the right answer.

Kevin Kennon: 00:21:00

It comes from understanding what the problem is.

Anthony Perl: 00:21:06

I think, and not only that, you are very much in a creative

Anthony Perl: 00:21:10

space and an AI can only base things on what it knows and to, there's a

Anthony Perl: 00:21:18

huge extent of where, a human being's ability to take things that it may

Anthony Perl: 00:21:26

have seen and create something new.

Anthony Perl: 00:21:30

Imagine something completely different is uniquely human.

Kevin Kennon: 00:21:34

Yeah.

Kevin Kennon: 00:21:35

I, the challenge that our profession has is that even if you, if Iactually were to

Kevin Kennon: 00:21:42

show you images of architects working in, say, the 1950 on these kinds of projects

Kevin Kennon: 00:21:48

that I'm involved, book tends to be large, say, hotels or around the world.

Kevin Kennon: 00:21:54

You know that, and you would see a sea of.

Kevin Kennon: 00:21:56

Desks and people drafting over the desks, these sort of giant,

Kevin Kennon: 00:22:01

drawings, maybe two or three people working on 'em, drawing at once.

Kevin Kennon: 00:22:05

And you would think that with the advances in technology, we wouldn't see

Kevin Kennon: 00:22:09

that and image anymore, but we still do.

Kevin Kennon: 00:22:12

We still have, big offices filled with people sitting at computer.

Kevin Kennon: 00:22:18

I do think the one area where AI can change that.

Kevin Kennon: 00:22:22

I do believe AI offers the ability to do more with less.

Kevin Kennon: 00:22:27

And that's that kind of efficiency I think is ultimately for the good of

Kevin Kennon: 00:22:32

the industry and and the good of these complex building projects that we're

Kevin Kennon: 00:22:38

gonna continue to have to do especially if we're trying to also solve climate issues.

Kevin Kennon: 00:22:44

And, as, as well as bridging the sort of vast cultural divide that still suffers.

Anthony Perl: 00:22:53

I wanna come back to the climate and sustainability part of

Anthony Perl: 00:22:56

things, but I just wanted to ask you as well, 'cause I'm fascinated by this view.

Anthony Perl: 00:23:00

I dunno what the psychology is, but I know certainly when I pick up a pen.

Anthony Perl: 00:23:03

And I write something down, it has a different impact to me typing it.

Anthony Perl: 00:23:08

And particularly when I'm trying to be creative.

Anthony Perl: 00:23:10

Often it needs the pen.

Anthony Perl: 00:23:12

There's something magic that happens with that.

Anthony Perl: 00:23:15

I don't know if it's the same in your profession, but how do now with

Anthony Perl: 00:23:19

the technology that you've got, is that, pen to, is it more now pen to

Anthony Perl: 00:23:24

track pad than it is pen to paper?

Anthony Perl: 00:23:28

In order to get that same impact, because, I gather that's the thing, right?

Anthony Perl: 00:23:33

If we, if, if we pick up a pen and you try and draw a straight line on

Anthony Perl: 00:23:36

your own it, it can be reasonable, but it's not gonna be as straight as

Anthony Perl: 00:23:39

using a ruler and marking that up.

Anthony Perl: 00:23:42

But, the great thing about doing that, just in simple applications,

Anthony Perl: 00:23:46

if you've got a electronic pen and you draw that straight line, it

Anthony Perl: 00:23:49

will straighten it for you, right?

Anthony Perl: 00:23:51

So is that process of using the technology in that way, is that the second step?

Anthony Perl: 00:23:56

Is that the, like, where do you balance that from the old fashioned,

Anthony Perl: 00:23:59

as you were saying, scribbling on a bit of paper to, utilizing the

Anthony Perl: 00:24:04

technology and bringing that in?

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:05

That, that's a really great question and I think it's I go back to

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:09

the collaborative part of what we do.

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:13

Yeah, people.

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:14

And this has become let me put it this way.

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:17

When I was first learning how to be an architect, even this was before

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:22

computers the skills that you learn were at sitting at your drafting table,

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:29

drawing by hand, a letter in by hand.

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:33

And it was very almost a social activity because people were

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:37

constantly going by your desk.

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:39

Stopping by looking at what you're doing, and you'd have a conversation about that.

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:45

Increasingly, as we move towards computers, you had to formalize

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:49

that into essentially gathering people within needing spaces and

Kevin Kennon: 00:24:54

projecting either pinning drawings up, projecting digital images on a screen.

Kevin Kennon: 00:25:00

But still, you'd have to, you would the most valuable part of it was.

Kevin Kennon: 00:25:06

Essentially conversing and critiquing, and challenging each other about,

Kevin Kennon: 00:25:12

what it is that you're seeing and how you to make it better.

Anthony Perl: 00:25:18

Yeah.

Anthony Perl: 00:25:18

It's I love how you are blending technology into what you are doing, and

Anthony Perl: 00:25:25

I think this is a perfect example for businesses where there it is a blend.

Anthony Perl: 00:25:29

It's not taking over there, there won't be.

Anthony Perl: 00:25:33

A a situation in the future where you can walk up to a, an AI and say,

Anthony Perl: 00:25:39

build me a house and it'll design the house asking a few questions.

Anthony Perl: 00:25:43

It's not going to be the same.

Anthony Perl: 00:25:45

That's not something that I imagine is really a proper

Anthony Perl: 00:25:48

vision for what your profession.

Kevin Kennon: 00:25:50

I do.

Kevin Kennon: 00:25:51

I, this is where I'd say I'm a big advocate on the future of the ai.

Kevin Kennon: 00:25:57

Because one of the things I've been very concerned about within

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:01

my profession is that we've drifted to over to specialization.

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:05

It used to be that architects were kind of generalists.

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:10

They basic they would look at the human condition and they would

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:15

offer, a vision of the future.

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:18

And then everything would fall into place around that.

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:21

Increasingly we've seen people overly specialize in particular areas

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:26

and we've lost sight of the sort of generalist part of what we do.

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:31

And I think ai, it flips that entire script because, and as you

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:36

said, it's not gonna ever really be good in terms of full throttle.

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:41

Creativity, it's always gonna be a little off in some way.

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:46

And it's gonna need to be corrected, of course corrected, whether it,

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:49

that's just in, in terms of prompts.

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:52

But I imagine you'll be able to essentially work with ai.

Kevin Kennon: 00:26:56

I'm using this AI a lot right now in terms of early envisioning of projects.

Kevin Kennon: 00:27:03

But what?

Kevin Kennon: 00:27:05

Highly critical line that I've developed over years of a very successful career.

Anthony Perl: 00:27:12

Yeah and I imagine it's going to help problem solve when

Anthony Perl: 00:27:15

you've got the creativity so that if you've looking at and say, I want to

Anthony Perl: 00:27:20

do X and you are not quite seeing how the solution might be, the AI might

Anthony Perl: 00:27:25

be able to draw upon its knowledge to help give you a solution to it, but

Anthony Perl: 00:27:29

its solution to a creative problem.

Anthony Perl: 00:27:33

That is the differentiator.

Kevin Kennon: 00:27:35

Yeah.

Kevin Kennon: 00:27:35

It will.

Kevin Kennon: 00:27:36

But I think it's still gonna be a sort of adjunct to through human interaction.

Kevin Kennon: 00:27:42

And there's this, there's nothing wrong.

Kevin Kennon: 00:27:44

I am concerned about how we're gonna train architects.

Kevin Kennon: 00:27:48

That's a whole nother, problem without some background in just.

Kevin Kennon: 00:27:55

Sketching and collaborating the way that I was talking about.

Kevin Kennon: 00:28:00

But I do think that the ability as we're doing right now to treat the

Kevin Kennon: 00:28:06

world and AI is gonna help accelerate that, where, I can have, and I do

Kevin Kennon: 00:28:12

this right now, I have people working all over the place on projects.

Kevin Kennon: 00:28:17

My main project right now, which is.

Kevin Kennon: 00:28:19

These wilderness hotels and resorts.

Kevin Kennon: 00:28:23

I had people working all over the world at 24 hours a day.

Kevin Kennon: 00:28:28

We're able to communicate just as you and I are communicating right now.

Anthony Perl: 00:28:33

I wanna talk about that because you said in

Anthony Perl: 00:28:36

the beginning you started a, architecture, but now it's pivoting

Anthony Perl: 00:28:39

a little bit more on the business.

Anthony Perl: 00:28:40

So tell me a little bit more about that process of pivoting

Anthony Perl: 00:28:43

and what that focus is now.

Kevin Kennon: 00:28:45

I, i've always worked a lot in real estate.

Kevin Kennon: 00:28:49

The projects I've done in New York City involve skyscrapers to abilities a com,

Kevin Kennon: 00:28:56

very complex projects, multi-family.

Kevin Kennon: 00:29:01

Some of them are what we call adaptive reuse, taking existing older buildings

Kevin Kennon: 00:29:05

and transforming them into something new.

Kevin Kennon: 00:29:08

And, yeah.

Kevin Kennon: 00:29:09

That process is yeah, essentially it's it requires a certain

Kevin Kennon: 00:29:19

ability to kind, I hate to use this term, but I'll use it here 'cause I it's

Kevin Kennon: 00:29:25

thinking outside of the box and then trying to find ways to get other people.

Kevin Kennon: 00:29:32

To respond to that.

Kevin Kennon: 00:29:34

And it and sometimes it happens, like that it's highly creative sort of spark.

Kevin Kennon: 00:29:39

Sometimes you have to really go through many different steps

Kevin Kennon: 00:29:42

saying many iterations before you get the right answer.

Anthony Perl: 00:29:48

Yeah.

Anthony Perl: 00:29:48

It's and, bringing that into.

Anthony Perl: 00:29:52

A new way of thinking as well.

Anthony Perl: 00:29:54

I think, when you start talking about sustainability and the, and climate

Anthony Perl: 00:29:58

change, there's a degree to which, there's a communal acceptance of these

Anthony Perl: 00:30:05

things, but there's a whole difference in actually being, wanting to implement and

Anthony Perl: 00:30:14

and what the consequences of doing that are in terms of, it's often more costly.

Anthony Perl: 00:30:19

It's often compromising a little bit on what you can and can't do, whether it's

Anthony Perl: 00:30:25

for financial reasons or because from a sustainability point of view, it's

Anthony Perl: 00:30:30

better if you do this, whereas, visually you might have preferred to do that.

Anthony Perl: 00:30:34

So how do you actually balance that out for yourself and for your clients?

Kevin Kennon: 00:30:38

I'm also very practical too.

Kevin Kennon: 00:30:40

And I have a history of trying to understand what our client, my

Kevin Kennon: 00:30:44

client's budget is what the, their pain points are in terms of their

Kevin Kennon: 00:30:49

business and how I can accelerate that.

Kevin Kennon: 00:30:52

And sometimes it means spending a little more, and sometimes it

Kevin Kennon: 00:30:54

means, just we have to, adjust our thinking in order to fit the budget.

Kevin Kennon: 00:31:00

I don't think it's I find that the sort of conversations with about architects

Kevin Kennon: 00:31:05

not caring about how much things cost.

Kevin Kennon: 00:31:08

You're not dealing with the right architects.

Kevin Kennon: 00:31:10

Because if you don't understand the business side of what we do you're

Kevin Kennon: 00:31:15

not really fully engaging all aspects.

Kevin Kennon: 00:31:19

But one is a very costly.

Anthony Perl: 00:31:23

Yeah, I think that's the interesting thing, isn't it,

Anthony Perl: 00:31:25

about the space that you're in.

Anthony Perl: 00:31:27

It is extremely costly when you start talking about larger scale buildings.

Anthony Perl: 00:31:32

But it's all relative, isn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:31:33

Even when you're building a house and it's for a it's, that is a relatively

Anthony Perl: 00:31:36

large expense for an individual.

Anthony Perl: 00:31:39

So it, it's keeping that in mind and reigning in what you might

Anthony Perl: 00:31:45

want to do and what you can do.

Anthony Perl: 00:31:49

That's a, an interesting challenge.

Kevin Kennon: 00:31:51

Yeah, it is.

Kevin Kennon: 00:31:52

I think, unfortunately there have been we've inherited our sort of legal process

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:00

is developed over years and years.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:02

It's almost a 19th century model of how we go about from design to construction.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:09

And that's another aspect that I see.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:12

Starting to change where I like to, to, and the best projects I've worked

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:17

on is the contractor doesn't show up in the middle of the project.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:21

They're at the beginning.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:23

Because they, those are the guys who have their ear to the ground.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:26

They understand the kind of minute arbitrage of prices.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:32

And better than I do.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:33

We're the best suppliers, what the best manufacturers,

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:36

what the best materials are.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:38

So having their input early on in the process is key.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:42

It's cre key to the creativity.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:44

I, I, the one thing I don't like having to do is to, you got everybody excited.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:50

We're all about this idea.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:51

We love this design.

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:54

You bring the contractor in, towards the end of, after you've done all

Kevin Kennon: 00:32:57

the hard work and they come back and they go, you're, 25% or 50%

Kevin Kennon: 00:33:04

or a hundred percent over budget, and then you have to readjust.

Kevin Kennon: 00:33:08

It's far better to say, okay, this is what we're doing.

Kevin Kennon: 00:33:11

This is, these are our limitations.

Kevin Kennon: 00:33:12

Understanding what those limits are, and then trying to be

Kevin Kennon: 00:33:15

creative within those limits.

Kevin Kennon: 00:33:18

To me that's what it's about.

Anthony Perl: 00:33:22

Yeah, talk to me a little bit about the niche that you've gotten

Anthony Perl: 00:33:25

into and how that came about, because it is again, a common business idea

Anthony Perl: 00:33:32

that everyone wants you to niche a little bit further for good reason.

Anthony Perl: 00:33:36

So how did you find this niche and how is it how's that playing out for you?

Kevin Kennon: 00:33:41

The without giving too much away I can't.

Kevin Kennon: 00:33:45

Name names, but I during I think it was actually right before the pandemic I got

Kevin Kennon: 00:33:51

called in as I often do on a project.

Kevin Kennon: 00:33:54

This case was in the Middle East, huge hotel and resort in

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:02

the middle of a desert and a, a.

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:06

Absolutely beautiful location, pristine.

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:12

If you've ever been to the US it's a lot like Northern Arizona or southern Utah.

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:18

These incredible sandstone formations and mountains, flat tops, meses.

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:25

And one of these the most absolutely gorgeous.

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:29

Mountain laptops that they, and they wanted, the client wanted to put in a

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:34

huge hotel to the point where it was just gonna be dominate everything.

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:41

And I remember I, they brought me in.

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:44

They wanted know what I thought.

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:45

And I said I think your hotel's too big, for the site.

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:49

We're saying not and so I needless to say, I wasn't on that project

Kevin Kennon: 00:34:53

very long, but but I did like the idea, this was a very remote location

Kevin Kennon: 00:35:00

that you was incredible destination.

Kevin Kennon: 00:35:03

So beautiful.

Kevin Kennon: 00:35:04

And the idea of putting, making something, that was the ultimate in

Kevin Kennon: 00:35:10

luxury and luxury I define in this case.

Kevin Kennon: 00:35:14

Essentially switching off the sort of everything digital and really just

Kevin Kennon: 00:35:19

going to a place that was serene and peaceful and quiet that you could

Kevin Kennon: 00:35:25

engage nature without necessarily having to feel like you were rough.

Kevin Kennon: 00:35:30

This but and I essentially have been working on that project

Kevin Kennon: 00:35:36

now for the past three years.

Anthony Perl: 00:35:38

And I think that's an interesting one, isn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:35:41

It's how the journey of, being in business and it takes you somewhere that fascinates

Anthony Perl: 00:35:45

you and that ability then utilize that and start to specialize in that space.

Anthony Perl: 00:35:50

And how do you it's one thing to have the passion for it, but how do you

Anthony Perl: 00:35:55

actually find the right buyers for it?

Anthony Perl: 00:35:58

How do you actually find the right people that this is something that is a priority

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:01

for you?

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:02

You, it's fortunately there are examples is there of these types of hotels.

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:07

I think the, what's interesting is that having now looked at them and

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:12

understanding the business models you, there are problems with many of them.

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:17

And those are the precise problems that I've looked at that it,

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:21

essentially becomes our differentiator.

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:24

I wouldn't say what that is, but needless to say you, it does help to

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:28

look at what the competition there is.

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:30

Look at the landscape, understand the trends and this is frankly,

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:35

since I started till today, this is only accelerated.

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:39

I think that and the one thing that is most interesting to

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:43

me, and you can see this.

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:45

The patterns of millennials and my kids are Zoomers, gen Z in their

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:52

travel habits is they travel in groups.

Kevin Kennon: 00:36:56

And they, and that's a different kind of travel.

Kevin Kennon: 00:37:00

Then we're used to.

Kevin Kennon: 00:37:02

And and based on that, I think, yeah, this is what I'm true to doing.

Kevin Kennon: 00:37:07

To focus on.

Kevin Kennon: 00:37:08

Remote wilderness, but you're together with your group.

Anthony Perl: 00:37:15

I love that.

Anthony Perl: 00:37:16

Whole concept.

Anthony Perl: 00:37:18

I, couple of questions just to wrap things up, and one is just based

Anthony Perl: 00:37:22

on that, is what's the future?

Anthony Perl: 00:37:25

What does it look like?

Anthony Perl: 00:37:26

How is it changing?

Anthony Perl: 00:37:27

Because when you look at.

Anthony Perl: 00:37:30

The obvious architecture is one of those obvious things when you can look at

Anthony Perl: 00:37:33

something and say that was, Victorian and that was this, and that was that.

Anthony Perl: 00:37:37

So where is it going?

Kevin Kennon: 00:37:38

I think what's interesting to me is that, that first of all, there's

Kevin Kennon: 00:37:45

I, there, there was a period there where it seemed like

Kevin Kennon: 00:37:48

we completely forgot history.

Kevin Kennon: 00:37:51

And you know that is.

Kevin Kennon: 00:37:53

That is something that I think we're gonna, as a species I do think that one

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:02

of the things that's gonna happen here is that one, when everything becomes so

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:07

immediate, when you can instantly get, what attention or whatever it is that

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:12

you're looking for the enduring qualities.

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:17

Buildings that had been there and preceded you through generations and cities

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:22

that have that fabric still intact.

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:25

I think people's attitude towards that is gonna change dramatically.

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:29

And I do believe that we're entering a new era where we're we're for lots of reasons.

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:36

Climate is one of them.

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:38

Tearing buildings down does do a lot of damage to a greenhouse gas emissions.

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:44

And the this adaptive reviews mentality of taking old buildings and repurposing

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:52

them, whether they're even, in New York, we've just opened up the plug

Kevin Kennon: 00:38:56

gates here with, set buildings that were office buildings that were

Kevin Kennon: 00:39:00

designed in the sixties and seventies.

Kevin Kennon: 00:39:03

Were developers are rapidly turning those over into apartments.

Kevin Kennon: 00:39:07

I, I believe the same thing's happening in I, I know Sydney,

Kevin Kennon: 00:39:12

it's happening in Melbourne.

Kevin Kennon: 00:39:13

We're you've got this building stock already.

Kevin Kennon: 00:39:17

And what do you do with it?

Kevin Kennon: 00:39:20

If nobody wants to work there anymore, turn them into what

Kevin Kennon: 00:39:25

people need, which is housing.

Anthony Perl: 00:39:28

I love that.

Anthony Perl: 00:39:29

The repurposing thing, it cast me back a little bit earlier on.

Anthony Perl: 00:39:32

The first apartment that I bought was a squash court before, and now they

Anthony Perl: 00:39:37

converted the squash courts into a.

Anthony Perl: 00:39:41

But people thinking out there going, isn't that small?

Anthony Perl: 00:39:43

And you go, no, actually a squash cord is a, I think it's about 64,

Anthony Perl: 00:39:47

65 square meters, which is, and it's, obviously height wise they're

Anthony Perl: 00:39:51

able to put extra extra floors in.

Anthony Perl: 00:39:54

But from a space point of view, it's actually, it was actually

Anthony Perl: 00:39:56

quite a large apartment.

Anthony Perl: 00:39:59

I do have to tell you that when I when I first moved in there and I had a had

Anthony Perl: 00:40:02

a party for all of my friends to come along, they all thought it was quite

Anthony Perl: 00:40:05

amusing to bring the Gatorade along and to to come dressed and squash here.

Anthony Perl: 00:40:09

Yeah.

Anthony Perl: 00:40:10

But I just to wrap things up, we could talk for a long time because it's

Anthony Perl: 00:40:13

such a fascinating space, but the question that I like to ask all of my

Anthony Perl: 00:40:16

guests is what's the aha moment that clients have when they start coming to.

Anthony Perl: 00:40:22

To work with you that you wish more people knew they were gonna have in advance.

Kevin Kennon: 00:40:25

I'm a lot of fun to work with, that's that

Kevin Kennon: 00:40:28

I've, I'd focused on people.

Kevin Kennon: 00:40:30

And I'm fascinated by people's stories.

Kevin Kennon: 00:40:33

And but you're going to spend that kind of money and that kind of time.

Kevin Kennon: 00:40:38

It's a great deal of time.

Kevin Kennon: 00:40:40

Work with people you like work.

Kevin Kennon: 00:40:41

That's, it's really, it really boils down to that at the end of the day.

Kevin Kennon: 00:40:45

Ideally, they're qualified to do the job, but so much is lost

Kevin Kennon: 00:40:53

when you don't have that sort of rapport, that kind of communication.

Kevin Kennon: 00:40:57

It's who wants to spend and it's gonna be a painful experience.

Kevin Kennon: 00:41:01

I, I. I never sugar sugarcoat this.

Kevin Kennon: 00:41:04

You're probably, they experienced that on several, deer house.

Kevin Kennon: 00:41:08

It always is painful, if you ever have the right people behind it

Kevin Kennon: 00:41:13

takes a little bit of that pain away.

Kevin Kennon: 00:41:15

At the end of the day, you look back on and say, that was

Kevin Kennon: 00:41:18

a, interesting thing to do.

Kevin Kennon: 00:41:19

And hopefully it turns out even better than you and Matt.

Anthony Perl: 00:41:26

I love that there've been so many valuable lessons for businesses

Anthony Perl: 00:41:29

of all type to learn from this, but as well, we glossed over it a little bit,

Anthony Perl: 00:41:34

but you have won a stack of awards.

Anthony Perl: 00:41:36

There are some amazing buildings that you've you've built I've,

Anthony Perl: 00:41:39

scrolled through your website and seen lots of interesting things.

Anthony Perl: 00:41:43

We will include all the links in the show notes for anyone listening in.

Anthony Perl: 00:41:46

Who wants to check out all of those different things that you've done,

Anthony Perl: 00:41:49

but thank you so much for sharing those amazing insights and here's

Anthony Perl: 00:41:54

to many more big projects to come.

Kevin Kennon: 00:41:56

Thank you, Anthony.

Kevin Kennon: 00:41:56

It's I enjoyed this conversation very much.

Kevin Kennon: 00:42:00

And I

Anthony Perl: 00:42:00

I appreciate your insight and to everyone listening in.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:03

Of course, don't forget to subscribe and we look forward to

Anthony Perl: 00:42:05

your company on the next episode of Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:09

Hey, thanks for listening to Biz Bites.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:11

We hope you enjoyed the program.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:13

Don't forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:16

Biz Bites is proudly brought to you by podcast done for you, the service

Anthony Perl: 00:42:20

where we will deliver a podcast for you and expose your brilliance.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:25

To the world.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:27

Contact us today for more information, details in the show notes.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:32

We look forward to your company next time on Biz Bites.