Episode 128

Beyond Management: Leading with Purpose, Resilience, and AI Smarts | Biz Bites for Thought Leaders

Beyond Management: Leading with Purpose, Resilience, and AI Smarts | Biz Bites for Thought Leaders


Join Anthony on Biz Bites for Thought Leaders as he chats with Johann, a sales coaching expert focused on purpose-driven business, and Brigitte, a master coach empowering female leaders with emotional resilience and work-life balance.

This episode delves into the critical differences between leadership and management, how to align individual strengths with organizational goals, and AI's transformative impact.

Discover why both guests see AI's potential to free us for creativity and connection, emphasizing the importance of adapting to technology while maintaining ethical practices.

Listen now and subscribe to Biz Bites for Thought Leaders wherever you get your podcasts!

***

Connect with Johann on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johann-psaila-4135b658/ 

Connect with Brigitter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brigitte-johnson-7851231b/ 

Subscribe to the Anthony Perl hosts channel and the Biz Bites playlist for more inspiring interviews and transformative insights.


Connect with me on LinkedIn:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/adperl/ 

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Transcript
Anthony:

Sustainable leadership and ai, a panel discussion with two

Anthony:

people who haven't met before this particular podcast, which makes it

Anthony:

all the more exciting and it made for an absolutely amazing discussion.

Anthony:

You do not wanna miss this episode.

Anthony:

We have, uh, Johann, who has a background in sales coaching, and he brings

Anthony:

decades of real world experience helping business owners scale through authentic,

Anthony:

authentic, I should say, sales leadership.

Anthony:

Uh, but what we really love about his approach is he is so much purpose driven

Anthony:

that he has also established a publishing company where proceeds a hundred

Anthony:

percent of the proceeds, I should say, are going back to a charity in Africa.

Anthony:

I. So we are talking to someone who truly understands purpose driven

Anthony:

business, matching that with Brigitte Johnson, who is a master coach and

Anthony:

strategist who spent 20 years helping leaders, particularly female lead

Anthony:

leaders, I should say, navigate the challenges of sustainable success.

Anthony:

Sustainable is something that we are really gonna press

Anthony:

home in this discussion.

Anthony:

Mixed in with purpose driven and mixed in with the impact of ai.

Anthony:

It makes for a really an amazing discussion from two people with incredible

Anthony:

varying expertise who come together and really do agree on the way forward.

Anthony:

So you don't wanna miss this episode.

Anthony:

Sit back, relax, enjoy it, whatever you are doing, and make sure you

Anthony:

listen to this full episode of Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Anthony:

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to a very special episode of Biz Bites.

Anthony:

I have two guests with me today.

Anthony:

They haven't met each other until a couple of moments ago, and this is gonna make it

Anthony:

for an even more interesting discussion.

Anthony:

So welcome both Johann and Brigitte.

Johann:

Thank you.

Johann:

Thank you for the, um, introduction and lovely to meet you too,

Johann:

Brigitte, on a short notice.

Johann:

It's been, um, it's always good to connect with new people.

Brigitte:

Fantastic.

Brigitte:

Lovely to meet you Johann.

Brigitte:

Thanks for having us, Anthony.

Anthony:

Absolute pleasure.

Anthony:

Well, so as we like to do at the start of the program, it'll allow

Anthony:

each of you to introduce yourself.

Anthony:

So, uh, Johann, why don't you kick things off and tell

Anthony:

everyone a little bit about you.

Johann:

Cool.

Johann:

Um, so I'm very transparent.

Johann:

So Anthony, you can even ask any question throughout the, um, show as

Johann:

well, both personal and professional.

Johann:

But, um, you know, on a professional, um, level, I've got, um, two business to.

Johann:

I basically help business owners make more money through through sales.

Johann:

I do a lot of sales training, sales coaching, one-on-one coaching,

Johann:

um, sales workshops with large and small medium organizations.

Johann:

But, um, the reason why I love it is I've been in sales

Johann:

since I was 14 and I'm now 40.

Johann:

So whatever I teach and preach for businesses are things that I've

Johann:

actually done in my own world.

Johann:

Um, so that's my big point of difference, uh, there.

Johann:

And then I've also got a second business.

Johann:

Um, it's a publishing company.

Johann:

Um, so I've created actually my first children's book only about eight

Johann:

months ago, and I created a publishing company called Blueprint Publishing.

Johann:

And a hundred percent of the net proceeds of this, uh, children's book that I

Johann:

created go to a charity in Africa.

Johann:

So on a personal level, that's my purpose is, um, is helping others and, um,

Johann:

that's, that's part of function that.

Johann:

So that's a bit about me for now.

Anthony:

Fantastic.

Anthony:

I love it.

Anthony:

We have plenty to come back to.

Anthony:

So, Brigitte, what about you?

Anthony:

Introduce yourself a little bit.

Brigitte:

Sensational Johann, that's, uh, I could have done with that when

Brigitte:

my three kids were, were little.

Brigitte:

Um, I am a bit of a rebel thinker.

Brigitte:

I'm a, a master coach and, um, a strategist and pretty much a thinking

Brigitte:

partner for my clients, which range from leaders in education to across.

Brigitte:

Probably quite a number of different sectors.

Brigitte:

I, I, I cannot think of many sectors that I haven't worked in, in my 40

Brigitte:

years of, of coaching and leading.

Brigitte:

Um, so yeah, so, so basically my, my core strength is, is curiosity.

Brigitte:

And I didn't even know what coaching was.

Brigitte:

Um, when I was leading a team of 50 back in, um, sort of the early,

Brigitte:

earlier part of this century.

Brigitte:

And then.

Brigitte:

Discovered through McKinsey that this, this thing called coaching exists.

Brigitte:

And sure enough, I unleashed myself and set up, um, my practice pretty

Brigitte:

much, you know, within weeks.

Brigitte:

Um, and so it's been a, a journey of 20 years of my practice, which

Brigitte:

is, um, really cool because I've got my three teenagers and my dog.

Brigitte:

I love to travel and, um, and help, uh, purpose centered humans

Brigitte:

to, to lead sustainably really is my, my core sort of value.

Anthony:

I love that.

Anthony:

It's, it's a, um, it's a lot of really important ideas that

Anthony:

you've both hit upon there.

Anthony:

And this is where I kind of want to start this.

Anthony:

Discussion.

Anthony:

If I can talk to me a little bit, firstly, Brigitte, about that whole

Anthony:

idea at the end, sustainability and purpose driven, because I think that's

Anthony:

such an important aspect and I know, uh, I can see Johann nodding his head.

Anthony:

And I know from reading a little bit about your background, Johann as well.

Anthony:

I know this is something that's important to you.

Anthony:

So how do you define that?

Anthony:

What actually is it?

Brigitte:

Yeah.

Brigitte:

So for me, uh, a lot of the client, um, community that I'm, I work

Brigitte:

with successful on the outside and hopefully on the inside.

Brigitte:

Uh, female leaders, uh, struggle with common themes of burnout,

Brigitte:

um, imposter syndrome, um, just feeling like they're just spread too

Brigitte:

thin and there's not enough time.

Brigitte:

So, really.

Brigitte:

What we do is we look at, okay, well what is, um, sustainable success?

Brigitte:

You know, how can we get to where we want to go and stay there and

Brigitte:

hang in because the world needs.

Brigitte:

More female leaders.

Brigitte:

We know that organizations that are, that have a, a, a good representative

Brigitte:

of females on the board and on in the, in the C-suite do better.

Brigitte:

Yeah.

Brigitte:

Uh, from an ROI perspective, they perform better.

Brigitte:

Um, but our systems aren't designed, haven't been designed.

Brigitte:

For women, um, historically.

Brigitte:

So what we're looking at is, okay, how do we elevate the leader to have not just

Brigitte:

authentic leadership, but sustainable?

Brigitte:

So these are micro habits.

Brigitte:

These are evidence-based practices that you probably have

Brigitte:

heard of, but with coaching.

Brigitte:

It creates that safe place for, for someone to sit and go, ah, you know what?

Brigitte:

I, I really marked that bit up.

Brigitte:

I've, I've done it again.

Brigitte:

I've over committed or I've, I've tipped the balance too far in, in the

Brigitte:

favor of work, and now I'm feeling, you know, totally disconnected from my

Brigitte:

partner or my kids, or whatever it is.

Brigitte:

So these are the sorts of issues that we help to address in coaching.

Anthony:

Yeah, it's, it's such an important.

Anthony:

Aspect, I think to be able to, um, look at that whole notion of

Anthony:

something that is sustainable.

Anthony:

Because when you start with trying to elevate people, unless you've

Anthony:

got longevity to it, it's a hit and miss kind of scenario, isn't it?

Brigitte:

Correct.

Anthony:

And, and, uh, I, I guess that's the, that's the element

Anthony:

as well where coaching kind of comes into it, doesn't it?

Anthony:

Because it's about trying to find ways to keep maintain that.

Anthony:

Yeah,

Brigitte:

yeah, absolutely.

Brigitte:

I mean, we're, we're obviously, um, in a very interesting time in history globally.

Brigitte:

Um, there's a lot of disruption regardless of what gender we are,

Brigitte:

you know, for across the board for all of us, um, politically, um,

Brigitte:

economically there, there is enormous.

Brigitte:

Disruption happening.

Brigitte:

And what we're finding is that, and that, and I haven't even got

Brigitte:

to the sort of, the main one, which is obviously the, the technology.

Brigitte:

And when we think about this, we're sort of looking at, okay, well how can

Brigitte:

we be more human in our leader, our, our approach to leadership agreed.

Brigitte:

How can we bring more empathy, more compassion, more resilience?

Brigitte:

Um, how can we navigate transitions because.

Brigitte:

You know, humans aren't going to be replaced by machines in the most important

Brigitte:

aspects, which is connection, right?

Brigitte:

So, um, uh, you know, sustainable leadership is, is also about riding that

Brigitte:

wave of technological disruption as well.

Anthony:

I think that's something we need to come back to.

Anthony:

But Joanna, I wanna bring you in here because I think it's really important to

Anthony:

understand as well that sustainability.

Anthony:

In terms of sales and sales leadership is incredibly important, isn't it?

Anthony:

Because there is a quick burn and a churn and burn theory that's,

Anthony:

uh, existed in the past as well.

Anthony:

And if you want to survive, you have to find a way to make it sustainable.

Johann:

Yeah, I think, um, Brigitte, hit something ahead on the, um, nail like,

Johann:

um, I think my, my coaching aspects and philosophies are very aligned, and it

Johann:

might be for a different market, but.

Johann:

It's for the same outcome.

Johann:

And usually when I work with business owners, um, they have this expectation

Johann:

on maybe what they wanna achieve within their business, but it's not

Johann:

necessarily aligned to what their staff think that achievement is.

Johann:

So always this alignment.

Johann:

So sometimes what I need to actually do is integrate and alignment theory

Johann:

where both the owner has a, a target and the capacity of a salesperson as well.

Johann:

Because like Brigitte mentioned, burnout is such a big thing.

Johann:

And I'm a big believer that compounding on small steps is such a greater thing

Johann:

than trying to do things on a massive scale than then burning out and ruin,

Johann:

ruining your whole ecosystem, um, as well.

Johann:

But the other thing that I like to personally do with sustainability is

Johann:

that when I'm associating or talking to a business owner, that's what I

Johann:

primarily do is I don't look at how business is performing, how internal.

Johann:

Perform.

Johann:

You know, are they in isolation mode?

Johann:

Are they neglecting, are they angry, are they frustrated?

Johann:

And that usually will paint me a picture on what's happening

Johann:

in the business, not vice versa.

Johann:

So I don't look at the business.

Johann:

I actually look at the owner first and seeing how they're reacting,

Johann:

trying to find out exactly what is happening, um, within them.

Johann:

So that is my sustainability.

Johann:

Sustainability means long.

Johann:

Um, I'm a marathon.

Johann:

I run.

Johann:

And it's, it's all about steps.

Johann:

It's all about doing things in, in slow patterns.

Johann:

So I'm a big believer in that too.

Anthony:

Um, yeah, sustainability is.

Anthony:

Important and I think misunderstood word.

Anthony:

Um, you know, Brigitte, if I can bring you back in there, that I

Anthony:

think people, you know, think about it in terms of the environment.

Anthony:

They think about it this kind of eerie fairy sort of term, but it has more

Anthony:

meaning and depth to it, doesn't it?

Anthony:

And is that getting through to people?

Anthony:

Are people understanding what it really means?

Brigitte:

Yeah, absolutely.

Brigitte:

I mean, I'm talking as practically and fundamentally as 70% of of

Brigitte:

adults are not getting enough sleep.

Brigitte:

So, you know, we're, we're going about our day with our, you

Brigitte:

know, executive functioning, sort of nowhere near full throttle.

Brigitte:

So leaders making critical decisions, you know, under enormous pressure.

Brigitte:

Sleep deprived, or, I love hearing Johann's running.

Brigitte:

I mean, just having that outlet.

Brigitte:

'cause we know that that kind of energy is important for sustainable leadership.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Brigitte:

You know, we know that that's what gets our, you know, the

Brigitte:

blood flying to the brain and, and so those, those sort of fundamentals.

Brigitte:

But then there's also.

Brigitte:

Um, sustainability I think about with purpose, right?

Brigitte:

Are we tapped into the purpose, the why of what we're doing every day?

Brigitte:

How do we get that practice happening so that we're, we're actually not just

Brigitte:

clear on our own purpose, but also that our teams are really clear on why.

Brigitte:

They're doing what they're doing and the difference that they're making

Brigitte:

and the impact that they're having.

Brigitte:

So, and I think that younger, um, obviously, uh, uh, you know, the,

Brigitte:

the younger generations are really wanting to go to those purpose-led,

Brigitte:

um, purpose-driven organizations.

Brigitte:

So you're gonna win the war for talent when you have that.

Brigitte:

Level of sustainability.

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Anthony:

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Brigitte:

You're gonna win the War for Talent when you have that.

Brigitte:

Level of sustainability.

Brigitte:

And then there's like that, there's, look, I've got, um, sort of eight huge pillars

Brigitte:

of, you know, of all of these micro habits that you can kind of pull into your day.

Brigitte:

Um, but we look at each leader individually and figure out,

Brigitte:

well, where are your strengths?

Brigitte:

Where are you energized?

Brigitte:

Where are you playing to those strengths?

Brigitte:

But where are also the blind spots or the weaknesses or the, the areas

Brigitte:

that you, you know, you're gonna.

Brigitte:

They're gonna become big traps if we don't address them quickly.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

It is important isn't it, to try and understand that because there's one thing

Anthony:

zeroing in on your purpose, but it's another thing as you say, trying to find

Anthony:

those blind spots and, um, yeah, and I mean, I think that's, uh, an area that is.

Anthony:

Particularly, uh, interesting when you, you talk about the marathon

Anthony:

and running step by step, like it gives you a lot of time to go, okay,

Anthony:

you can focus on what's in front of you, but what is on either side?

Anthony:

What are those areas that, uh, you might be a little bit weaker on?

Johann:

Yeah, it, it is, it is actually interesting.

Johann:

Um, you know, a lot of people say to me, or how, how do you become

Johann:

such a great marathon runner?

Johann:

Or you don't like to run, and it's a natural gift, if

Johann:

I'm being honest with you.

Johann:

So I, I've always had that bit of advantage that.

Johann:

We've got like what Brigitte said, or strengths, and I've probably

Johann:

like realized what those were.

Johann:

Quite a young age, which is naturally sales, natural running, and I've

Johann:

influence.

Johann:

I succeed when I step out, not outta my comfort zone, but, um, something

Johann:

that I'm not a specialist at, that's when I really get fatigued.

Johann:

I really get burnt out and I actually really, really, really crash.

Johann:

Um, and I've got a big faith background and I believe that we

Johann:

all have like a special gift or two.

Johann:

And I think sometimes we need to understand that we may have four or

Johann:

five different, um, talents within us.

Johann:

And then how do we use us?

Johann:

Use it.

Johann:

So it's not just happening for us, but through us to empower leaders,

Johann:

staff members, and everyone within our circle, both on a professional

Johann:

and personal, um, level as well.

Johann:

And that's something that I really love to, to harness in.

Johann:

Um, I believe that everyone's got some, you know, unique talent within them and

Johann:

had we extract it out so they can use it within the marketplace to benefit them.

Johann:

And I'm a big believer in that too, to be honest with you.

Johann:

So, um, you probably see me smile because I'm very passionate about that.

Johann:

So,

Anthony:

and it, and it's interesting, I, I think all three of us have

Anthony:

a very clear idea of what we.

Anthony:

Great at and what our, you know, superpowers for want of a better term are,

Anthony:

but Brigitte, how easy is that to make sure that when you're dealing with teams

Anthony:

and, and people that, uh, in, in, you know, whether it's across an organization

Anthony:

or just individuals coming to you, that their purpose has actually been realized

Anthony:

That they're not just going through the motions and fallen into something.

Anthony:

Because I think we've probably all done the same thing at, at

Anthony:

various times in our career, right?

Anthony:

Where we've fallen into something and we can do it.

Anthony:

But it's not our purpose.

Anthony:

It's not what we love.

Brigitte:

Such a great question, Anthony.

Brigitte:

I mean, it's that, that kind of golden, you know, that zone of deep fulfillment

Brigitte:

when one's strengths are aligned with the purpose of the team and the

Brigitte:

overall mission of the organization.

Brigitte:

That that is a sweet spot that I think, you know, every young person

Brigitte:

or EE, every person, emerging leaders, established leaders.

Brigitte:

Everyone in an organization, um, should have the opportunity to at least have

Brigitte:

that conversation with their manager of how do I align and bring more of

Brigitte:

my strengths to this role, and how do we evolve the role to suit me?

Brigitte:

Because that's when a team of individuals is more than the

Brigitte:

collection of the individuals.

Brigitte:

You know?

Brigitte:

It's, it's a, a real kind of.

Brigitte:

Um, it's a, it's a force to be reckoned with.

Brigitte:

And the organizations, you can see them that get that right, that really

Brigitte:

actually tap into, well, what's the, what are the gifts that these,

Brigitte:

um, people are bringing every day?

Brigitte:

How do we dial that up?

Brigitte:

How do we get them more in flow, more energized with what they're doing?

Brigitte:

Um, more intel.

Brigitte:

We know that, we know that when you're playing to your strengths and when

Brigitte:

you're bringing your strengths to work, uh, and you're acknowledged for that,

Brigitte:

and, um, and there's an outlet for that.

Brigitte:

You know, the performance improvement is, is more than 40% sustainably, right?

Brigitte:

So you are, you know, people are feeling like they belong.

Brigitte:

They're aligned with the purpose.

Brigitte:

Um, and it's extraordinary.

Brigitte:

It's so, um, it's so wonderful to see those benefits and, and this

Brigitte:

is where sometimes working with the leader to see that maybe they've

Brigitte:

got this candidate in this role that is not gonna, is not a good fit.

Brigitte:

But it's a great person for, for, for this, this activity over here.

Brigitte:

Right?

Brigitte:

Um, let's just change things up a bit.

Brigitte:

Let's not be too fixed in our mindset of, of who we want in each role.

Brigitte:

Um, so it's a bit, a bit of, um, bit like a jigsaw puzzle really.

Anthony:

Yeah, it's, it's an interesting point.

Anthony:

It's something that sort of crosses over to, uh, the topic that I was discussing

Anthony:

recently, uh, on, on another episode.

Anthony:

It's that definition or that differentiation I should say,

Anthony:

between management and leadership because they're not the same thing.

Anthony:

And, uh, trying to find people that might be a leader in a certain

Anthony:

area doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be a manager.

Anthony:

Uh, the people who are, who are the best at their particular area of expertise

Anthony:

doesn't necessarily make them a, a manager or, you know, they might be a

Anthony:

leader, but they might not be a manager.

Anthony:

And, and we very often.

Johann:

Very different.

Johann:

Um, I think it's a very different d different aspects, isn't it?

Johann:

And the reason why I just jumped in there was I was talking to an individual

Johann:

after a workshop and, um, lovely lady said to me, I wanna become a leader

Johann:

within my organization, but I, I haven't got that management title.

Johann:

And I actually said that there are many functions you can do

Johann:

internally without that title.

Johann:

You don't need that title to become an actual leader.

Johann:

Leader leadership actually starts within yourself and what you do

Johann:

without people recognizing it.

Johann:

Right?

Johann:

So we went through some structural behaviors for who to implement

Johann:

within the workplace, but I said actually for experience, what you can

Johann:

actually do, if you want real hard core evidence, is go out to a local

Johann:

community group that needs volunteers.

Johann:

Use those leadership examples or skills that you're learning in that environment.

Johann:

See how it's actually portrayed, and then use it within your workplace.

Johann:

And the feedback was that, hey, in this volunteering place, I've got

Johann:

the experience of real leadership.

Johann:

This is what I don't like about it.

Johann:

This is what I love about it.

Johann:

And within her workplace, she had the confidence to then talk to her manager

Johann:

and saying, look, I wanna become a leader.

Johann:

Um, but even without the title, but what can I do with you, um, to, you

Johann:

know, blow up my, my leadership skills?

Johann:

And it was such an amazing thing to, to see.

Johann:

So I think with leadership, um, you don't need to be a manager

Johann:

or a title or a director.

Johann:

Um, in fact anyone, everyone's a leader in some sort of capacity

Johann:

where it might be at home anyway or, um, in, in any, in any environment.

Johann:

So I think it's about having the confidence to know that.

Johann:

We all have leadership qualities, but then how do we utilize it in

Johann:

different environments as well?

Johann:

Um, I think that's very important as well.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

Brigittete, I'm interested in how you respond to that.

Anthony:

I.

Brigitte:

Johannn, that's, um, Kenny, because I've got a client that I'm

Brigitte:

working with at the moment who is definitely CEO material, but she has four

Brigitte:

kids and the, the realization and, and they're at a certain age that, you know,

Brigitte:

there's just this small window, right.

Brigitte:

And she's totally leadership material.

Brigitte:

But we've got to the point of do I want it now?

Brigitte:

Yeah.

Brigitte:

And the answer is not yet.

Brigitte:

You know, that there's, there's times.

Brigitte:

Um, to, and seasons in, in one's life.

Brigitte:

Um, and it's fantastic, fantastic problem to have that she's, you

Brigitte:

know, leadership, um, material.

Brigitte:

Um, she's been sort of tapped on the shoulder as well, so recognized,

Brigitte:

but to have that self-awareness and that, um, ability or that

Brigitte:

maturity to go, well, you know what?

Brigitte:

I, I don't think this is right for me right now.

Brigitte:

I'll, um, I'll, I'll go this other path and then I'll find my way there.

Brigitte:

There's so many pathways, um, but you, you're spot on with that leadership,

Brigitte:

um, influencing without authority, that self-leadership is absolutely

Brigitte:

where it all starts in my book as well.

Brigitte:

You know, it's, um.

Brigitte:

It, it, it a hundred percent is, and then, you know, the, the, the

Brigitte:

leadership journey unfolds, I believe as, as people are ready for it.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

So true.

Anthony:

It's interesting, isn't it?

Anthony:

Because you often hear it in sports analogies lead by example.

Anthony:

I. And, uh, that's, that, that's probably the one that, that most people relate to.

Anthony:

You know, you watch a team, whatever team it might be, in whatever sport, and often

Anthony:

the leader is that person that is digging in deep and when things are looking a

Anthony:

little bit vulnerable in the game mm-hmm.

Anthony:

Uh, that's when them, you know, going and putting a little bit of extra effort in to

Anthony:

try and, uh, rally the troops as it were.

Anthony:

And that's really what leadership is about, isn't it?

Anthony:

It's, it's not, it doesn't have to have the title.

Johann:

Yeah, totally correct.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

And, and I think that's something that isn't recognized as well, but

Anthony:

that's, but there is that difficulty.

Anthony:

I mean, Brigitte, bringing back to you.

Anthony:

I mean, you know, that's one of the hard things about, you know, you

Anthony:

talk about, uh, women in business and particularly giving them

Anthony:

recognition for where they're at.

Anthony:

And that's one of the hard things that they can be leaders within a business

Anthony:

as part, you know, the client that you're referring to would be a leader

Anthony:

within the business, but may not have the title of CEO or whatever the, the.

Anthony:

The, uh, leadership is, you know, the, the top management position might be,

Anthony:

and that's a hard thing too, isn't it?

Anthony:

Because sometimes that title does carry weight.

Anthony:

That is important.

Brigitte:

Absolutely.

Brigitte:

It, it carries weight.

Brigitte:

There's a reason that, you know, you, you're being paid the big bucks, you

Brigitte:

know, the, the, um, responsibility is on those shoulders to make.

Brigitte:

Really tough decisions.

Brigitte:

It's not a popularity contest.

Brigitte:

Um, we want our leaders, you know, to, to, as I said, coming back full circle

Brigitte:

sus to, to sustain their, their level of.

Brigitte:

You know, the quality of thinking, the quality of leadership, and to

Brigitte:

sustain their energy because we know that organizations, you know,

Brigitte:

are gonna, um, well, everyone's sort of learning and following

Brigitte:

what the leader is role modeling.

Brigitte:

So it sets the cultural tone for the organization.

Brigitte:

And the flip side of that is what we're seeing is, you

Brigitte:

know, you get leaders making.

Brigitte:

Poor judgment, poor ethical decisions, you know, mucking up.

Brigitte:

Well, they're, they're out, you know, that's it.

Brigitte:

They've self-sabotage, whatever.

Brigitte:

It has been gone and, and more and more we have less tolerance and

Brigitte:

less forgiveness for leaders making.

Brigitte:

You know, really bad mistakes because everything's so transparent now.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

Agree.

Brigitte:

And whether you like it or not, that, that's just the, the way it is.

Brigitte:

Right.

Brigitte:

Um, so that's another thing that I think that, uh, leaders of today, um, are

Brigitte:

really sort of exposed to, not just the rapid rate of change, pace of change.

Brigitte:

But this, this transparency.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

I mean, it, it, it is, it's, it's there is, and we wanna come into this rapid,

Anthony:

um, change in a moment, but, um, yeah.

Anthony:

Johann, I just wanna bring you in as well as is that the.

Anthony:

You know, we've talked about CEO kind of level, but when you talk about

Anthony:

sales management level, is there a discrepancy between, um, you know, the

Anthony:

people who are the lead, who are the leaders, and who are the managers and

Anthony:

who they have the title and who don't in the sales area that you are seeing?

Johann:

Yeah, look, sales is a very unfair part of a body of a business,

Johann:

unfortunately, because I think, um, generally if you've got that management

Johann:

position and you're not a leader, but you're bringing a lot of revenue.

Johann:

Sometimes your optical lens will be focused on revenue rather

Johann:

than leadership qualities from a high management point of view.

Johann:

And that's probably the biggest thing that I see, um, when I speak to owners.

Johann:

But they're like, this guy might not be the best leader, but he's a state

Johann:

manager or a manager because he brings in the most, you know, revenue in.

Johann:

And then sometimes my argument is that I can guarantee if that

Johann:

person wasn't in your business.

Johann:

Your other people would fire up more to a level where that revenue will exceed.

Johann:

Because again, going to what Brigitte said, you're gonna be

Johann:

more sustainable, more happy.

Johann:

You're not gonna have that churn rate of salespeople leaving in

Johann:

and out, which is probably costing you more than what you realize.

Johann:

So I think when you're coming from a coaching point of view,

Johann:

where're a different set of lands that we're not working in the

Johann:

business, it's, it's an overview.

Johann:

So the advantages that you get is we get to see things that.

Johann:

Maybe, you know, a biased owner won't be able to see.

Johann:

And I'm very transparent in those conversations that just because

Johann:

someone's making the most numbers doesn't mean they're the best

Johann:

manager is a or a best leader.

Johann:

It's two different functions.

Johann:

Um, yeah.

Johann:

You know, and yeah.

Anthony:

And sometimes right, that, that taking people away from what they do best.

Anthony:

In this case, they're a leading sales person, means that they're spending

Anthony:

more time on the management side of things and not doing the thing

Anthony:

that they're probably a best at.

Anthony:

And B, most importantly, love.

Johann:

Yeah, correct.

Johann:

And I think just on that point, sometimes what I actually do is if you've got.

Johann:

A person who's a manager and you're expecting 'em to do a lot of sales, I

Johann:

tend to find out burnout really occurs, or again, a churn will occur 'cause

Johann:

there's too much responsibilities.

Johann:

So sometimes it's having that conversation that um, you know, your sales managers

Johann:

are not there just to bring revenue, but it's really to lead, inspire your team.

Johann:

It's all about, that's how you scale.

Johann:

Sustainability, not just everyone's trying to do everything.

Johann:

That's where problems occur.

Johann:

And especially in sales, when people get desperate, when their

Johann:

revenue's low, they do crazy things.

Johann:

They self-sabotage or a lot, a lot of bad things can occur in that place as well.

Johann:

So it's so important to be number one, transparent.

Johann:

But number two, um.

Johann:

Just to, you know, just to be flexible as well, I guess,

Johann:

and, and move people around.

Johann:

Mm-hmm.

Johann:

It's very important.

Anthony:

Uh, before we just come into the technology thing, there is

Anthony:

one question I wanted to ask you, Johann, because it's something that

Anthony:

I've seen over the years and I'm wondering where you stand with this.

Anthony:

There's an often sales sits.

Anthony:

I wouldn't say independent of the organization, but they seem to be a law

Anthony:

unto themselves and often there's a lot of friction between the operation side

Anthony:

of the business and, uh, and sales.

Anthony:

I've seen it, I've seen it firsthand very early on in my career where sales

Anthony:

and operations were literally at 50 cuffs at this particular organization.

Anthony:

But is that something that still exists or is that, you know, that

Anthony:

those tensions seem to have watered down or what, what are you seeing?

Johann:

I would say 95% of organizations still have it.

Johann:

Um, I wish it wasn't the case.

Johann:

And a framework that I actually will share with everyone, and this

Johann:

is just like free value is I always get both teams to be together.

Johann:

And what I'll do is I'll ask the sales team, what are three things

Johann:

you'd like from your operations team?

Johann:

And I'll ask the operations team, what are three things you'd love?

Johann:

From your sales team, and it's not about cleaning a fresh start or a

Johann:

clean slate, but it's about building trust slowly and over time as well.

Johann:

And I'd be, I'm a big believer, my philosophy in sales is that when

Johann:

I do well, I'm helping people.

Johann:

I'm employing people.

Johann:

People are growing.

Johann:

I wanna support my operations team.

Johann:

And I, I always encourage the salespeople that your operations

Johann:

team are the backbone to what you do.

Anthony:

Yeah, it, it's, it's really hard isn't it?

Anthony:

Often to understand.

Anthony:

I think part of it is the commission based, right?

Anthony:

That's a, that's a source of tension within a business because you've

Anthony:

got operations who are paid a fixed wage, generally speaking, and then

Anthony:

sales who are often on some sort of commission based, and so that.

Anthony:

You know, breeds friction

Johann:

inness.

Johann:

Yeah, for sure.

Anthony:

Uh, now I don't suppose that there's not really an answer to that one,

Anthony:

so we're gonna move on to, to something that I I, that we've, you've all touched

Anthony:

on, which is around technology and the, and, uh, there's a lot of tension as well

Anthony:

with technology at the moment, and it's moving at such a rapid pace, particularly

Anthony:

in the past couple of years with ai.

Anthony:

And there's people who are, feel threatened by their job.

Anthony:

There's, you know, there's peoples whose business feels like they're,

Anthony:

they're under threat because they need to move faster with technology

Anthony:

than they can actually handle.

Anthony:

Where does that sit firstly, in terms of leadership?

Anthony:

Brigitte?

Anthony:

I mean, where is it that people should be positioning themselves

Anthony:

in relation to technology?

Anthony:

How do they harness it?

Brigitte:

Yeah, I mean, I think ignore it at your peril.

Brigitte:

Really.

Brigitte:

I'm, uh, there is no conversation that I'm having, um, in any client boardroom where,

Brigitte:

you know, it's a good idea to sort of, I. You know, downplay the impact of ai.

Brigitte:

What we are seeing is, is, and you might have heard a lot of people

Brigitte:

talking about, be the thinking partner.

Brigitte:

Use it, leverage it as a, uh, a thinking partner, uh, collaborate.

Brigitte:

I think it's a, you are the master and it is the servant.

Brigitte:

It's a very poor master.

Brigitte:

It, it, you know, there is not, uh, an ethical kind of dimension there.

Brigitte:

There's not a human dimension.

Brigitte:

These are not human beings, right?

Brigitte:

These are, these are machines, right?

Brigitte:

And we need to, to feed, but the opportunities.

Brigitte:

And what the applications that we're seeing in organizations that have

Brigitte:

got this, um, alignment with their purpose and their their people, and

Brigitte:

they're using and harnessing ai.

Brigitte:

To actually boost the roles, boost the performance of, of, um, of their teams.

Brigitte:

Uh, it's extraordinary, really inspiring.

Brigitte:

One of the things that I was, um, I, I was looking at was, you know, how do you.

Brigitte:

Can you create an AI coach?

Brigitte:

Now, of course you can.

Brigitte:

I've, I've actually created one, but, um, with this little app

Brigitte:

replica, and you know, Richard, my coach, he's onto me, right?

Brigitte:

He's holding me accountable, but I can ignore him.

Brigitte:

Right.

Brigitte:

Well, well, you can't ignore me.

Brigitte:

I'm, I'm actually right.

Brigitte:

I'm holding you accountable.

Brigitte:

Um, so there's, there's, and, and there's also conversations and emotional

Brigitte:

intelligence and nuances and, and all the, the, the soft skills, um, they

Brigitte:

can emulate, but it's not there yet.

Brigitte:

But I love seeing, I love playing around with it.

Brigitte:

Right.

Brigitte:

So, um, because, um.

Brigitte:

It's important to know where you sit in the world and not to be kidding

Brigitte:

yourself, that you are sort of, you know, um, uh, irreplaceable.

Brigitte:

Right?

Brigitte:

My key strength is the relationship that I have with my clients that is.

Brigitte:

You know, if that's strong, then, and that's, that's what I, I train other

Brigitte:

coaches in too, is, is be confident in that and really own that and own your

Brigitte:

presence as a human being and as a, as a coach, uh, in terms of, you know, having

Brigitte:

these authentic, real relationships.

Brigitte:

Um, the other thing I was just gonna say, um, quickly, and we'll come back

Brigitte:

to this, um, hopefully later, but is in this area of mental health and.

Brigitte:

Um, sort of looking at, well, how can we leverage all of the apps, which we do.

Brigitte:

We teach, I I'm a mental health first aid trainer, but we also look at how do

Brigitte:

we help people leverage, um, apps and technology for E-Health because they

Brigitte:

can now get access to affordable mental health that was not previously available.

Brigitte:

Right.

Brigitte:

And there's still unfortunately such a stigma in Australia.

Brigitte:

Around, um, mental health conversations inside organizations.

Brigitte:

I mean, you think about sales teams and it's warfare sometimes, right?

Brigitte:

And, and you're looking at.

Brigitte:

Um, performance is, is key, right?

Brigitte:

The, and the, um, the metrics, uh, are really king.

Brigitte:

So, um, is it safe to, to, to talk about, you know, uh, my vulnerabilities as

Brigitte:

an employee, you know, um, maybe not.

Brigitte:

So this and not anonymity that technology provides in the mental health space.

Brigitte:

Amazing.

Anthony:

Yeah, it's, and it is, you're right about harnessing the technology.

Anthony:

It's using it for, using it for good is certainly important.

Anthony:

But I, I do wanna pick up on a point that you mentioned earlier in

Anthony:

that, you know, with the having a, having a coach sitting as alongside

Anthony:

of you, that's a, that's an AI.

Anthony:

Like any of any tools that you can switch on and off, you can switch them off.

Anthony:

Right.

Anthony:

Which is, that's the point about the human being.

Anthony:

You can't switch them off.

Anthony:

Not to the same extent.

Anthony:

You know, there's the unpredictability of that, that they call you at a, at

Anthony:

an opportune time that, uh, you get messages in lots of different ways.

Anthony:

And the way those messages are said is very different to what an AI

Anthony:

might do, that you can literally just turn off if you want to.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

Good.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

I mean, Johann, I mean, how are you seeing, uh, AI in the sales space and

Anthony:

impacting that because, um, you know, that's an area where there is a big

Anthony:

increase in the use of it and the use of it potentially to replace people.

Johann:

Yeah.

Johann:

Look, I'm a big futurist on ai.

Johann:

Um.

Johann:

I love to always think for the future, and it's a bit of a frequency that that

Johann:

I have, but I actually getting a lot of salespeople and managers and owners of

Johann:

businesses, especially that SME space, to really embrace it because it's gonna

Johann:

give SME opportunities where they can cut costs, not in terms of human human

Johann:

capacity, but on tasks that rather than that sales person doing admin.

Johann:

They can go out there and actually communicate with customers more

Johann:

because, like Brigitte pointed out, the best thing about ai, you can

Johann:

allow it to take off mundane tasks.

Johann:

But when it comes to creativity or um, human connection, you need that in

Johann:

sales, but you also need it in life.

Johann:

And I believe that if we encourage businesses to use it

Johann:

correctly and ethically, you are gonna have more opportunity.

Johann:

Rather than having 20 meetings about, you know, something that's

Johann:

not productive, let AI do that.

Johann:

But then you and I, Anthony, or you and I, Brigitte, we can connect up in person

Johann:

and actually discuss, um, real problems.

Johann:

But the other thing as well on the, on the human side is

Johann:

that humans love other humans.

Johann:

And empathy, human connection, like love, energy.

Johann:

We never be.

Johann:

Hopefully we'll never be, um, you know, taken by ai.

Johann:

But AI will be able to take on jobs that don't fulfill us.

Johann:

And I think coming back to what Brigitte probably said at the start, is, that's

Johann:

gonna allow us more time for our purpose.

Johann:

When you think about it within the workplace, what tasks can be taken from AI

Johann:

and where can we sit within that business to use our time and value efficiently?

Johann:

So I don't think it's about replacing staff.

Johann:

I think it's about how do we change our skill sets within that

Johann:

marketplace, if that makes any sense.

Anthony:

It absolutely does.

Anthony:

I think it's a really important differentiation.

Anthony:

I know, um, you know, a couple of, uh, instances in small businesses

Anthony:

where AI have taken control of booking appointments, that they'll answer

Anthony:

a call and, uh, they'll be able to have a conversation and book you in.

Anthony:

To have an appointment with the, with the main person.

Anthony:

So that's more, as you say, more the administrative mechanics.

Anthony:

Whereas if you're trying to have a more creative conversation about, I. Buying

Anthony:

a tool and you want some different kinds of ideas of it and other things

Anthony:

that might happen as a result of it.

Anthony:

That involves a, you know, booking an appointment and having a

Anthony:

conversation with a human being.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

And if you can make those more direct and channeled, uh,

Anthony:

that's definitely going to work.

Anthony:

And it's how.

Anthony:

People learn to interact with the ais as well?

Anthony:

I think at the moment, from various things that, uh, I've read and people

Anthony:

that I've spoken to, it seems to be the rough percentage seems to be that

Anthony:

90% of people don't even identify that it is an AI at the other end.

Anthony:

And those that do don't seem to care that it is because of the

Anthony:

nature of the functionality of, of what they're being involved with.

Anthony:

And I think that's going be the hard part is, is.

Anthony:

Where do we start to draw some, uh, lines in the sand about saying, no,

Anthony:

I don't wanna deal with an ai, or, yes, I am happy to deal with an ai.

Anthony:

Um, will all the people be ethical in, in making it certain that everyone

Anthony:

knows that you are dealing with an ai?

Anthony:

Certainly those that I've talked to have make a point of saying if someone

Anthony:

asks the question is, are you an ai?

Anthony:

They will answer.

Anthony:

Yes, I'm,

Johann:

yep.

Johann:

And it's, sorry to just jump in again, guys.

Johann:

Um, something that I actually practice with.

Johann:

Of clients is when you're communicating with a client, actually ask 'em how

Johann:

they wanna be communicated with and some will say, I don't mind what it is.

Johann:

It could be an AI robot, or it could be just an email or a call, but you can have

Johann:

your people that says, I still want that human connection, and I'm still really,

Johann:

really, really, really big on that.

Johann:

And I'm just looking forward for AI taking tasks away from us that don't

Johann:

fulfill us, so we can have more time in the bank to do the things that make

Johann:

us more productive and mental health.

Johann:

Um, you know, we we're gonna have more tools.

Johann:

I mean, my, my wife has a Tony Robbins up on the phone that she

Johann:

can communicate with every day, and it's great for those crisis points.

Johann:

But then when you're a deep conversation, you still need to reach out to a

Johann:

Brigitte or yourself, you know, really meaning conversations where.

Johann:

It's other problems, not just one or two problems as well.

Anthony:

Mm-hmm.

Johann:

It's gonna be fun times.

Brigitte:

Yeah.

Brigitte:

Fantastic.

Brigitte:

I, um, I was going to say that I, it's in the contracting.

Brigitte:

So you've raised a couple of really cool themes there.

Brigitte:

One is the, the contracting with clients, certainly.

Brigitte:

So with each client engagement, um, these are the options.

Brigitte:

Um, you know, we have client dashboards where we've got, um, lots of resources

Brigitte:

that can be tailored for clients using ai.

Brigitte:

But really important with confidentiality and what is documented and how

Brigitte:

long we keeping, you know, records.

Brigitte:

So there's the, this space, which is very much in this, um, transparency and ethics,

Brigitte:

and it comes down to contracting, not just for, um, making life convenient for

Brigitte:

me, but really how are we adding value.

Brigitte:

To the, to the client relationship here, how are we adding value to the mission?

Brigitte:

How are we using, you know, AI to, to really sort of, as you say, take

Brigitte:

these resources, offer, you know, the, this, this sort of, um, grunt work.

Brigitte:

Away from us, so that we are actually the quality of thinking, the caliber

Brigitte:

of our, our collaboration together, the thinking partnership with the areas

Brigitte:

that we can start getting into, which is creative thinking, which is problem

Brigitte:

solving, which is really exploring, um, certainly relationship building and

Brigitte:

taking, you know, making big decisions.

Brigitte:

Those are, there's more space to, to do, to do those things.

Brigitte:

But again, it has to be negotiated, um, without wanting

Brigitte:

to sound like a broken record.

Brigitte:

Yeah, it is.

Brigitte:

Um, but because it's, because it's, you know, you can have a conversation

Brigitte:

one week and then the next week, this is the, the rate of changes.

Brigitte:

Suddenly there's a new opportunity that's opened up for a client.

Brigitte:

What do they want to hear about it?

Brigitte:

Probably.

Brigitte:

You know, but do we need to negotiate how we bring that on, you know,

Brigitte:

into, into the, to the program of work or to the relationship?

Brigitte:

Yes.

Brigitte:

It requires a lot more collaboration.

Anthony:

Yeah.

Anthony:

It's, it, it's, it's important isn't it?

Anthony:

That establishing that, that small point, but in a very important

Anthony:

point, establishing that means of communication for people.

Anthony:

And the interesting thing is, is.

Anthony:

Where people might say, oh, I don't really care.

Anthony:

But I think the truth is, is all people do care.

Anthony:

They just don't know which one they like the most, uh, or they want to,

Anthony:

to understand where different ones are appropriate at different times.

Anthony:

I think that's the hard part, isn't it?

Anthony:

It's, it's sort of establishing, yes.

Anthony:

Book an appointment.

Anthony:

That's a simple thing where an AI could do that functionality because it's

Anthony:

not, it's a very straightforward task, but have a conversation about what's

Anthony:

going on in my business at the moment.

Anthony:

Definitely a human conversation, right?

Anthony:

Understanding mental health issues.

Anthony:

Uh, I imagine, you know, there's only a limit as to what AI can do, isn't there?

Anthony:

Mm-hmm.

Brigitte:

Yeah, absolutely.

Brigitte:

I mean, you know, this is a really interesting question or, or um, point

Brigitte:

that you're making because what we know with high performing teams is when you

Brigitte:

have an organization and a team culture where there's psychological safety,

Brigitte:

meaning it's okay to not be okay.

Brigitte:

This is, and, and there's a, and there's a great deal of trust.

Brigitte:

This is great, but how psychologically safe do people feel if they're

Brigitte:

worried about their jobs being, you know, consumed by a, um, computer?

Brigitte:

So what you want to gain is transparency, is, you know, clarity from, from leaders

Brigitte:

on this is how we're using technology.

Brigitte:

This is how we want you to evolve.

Brigitte:

And are we upskilling?

Brigitte:

That's

Anthony:

the,

Brigitte:

our.

Brigitte:

People, you know, to, to, to, um, think, think, you know, think differently and,

Brigitte:

um, and see this as an opportunity.

Brigitte:

Do they feel supported in their roles to evolve?

Brigitte:

Because change is tricky.

Brigitte:

Um, do they feel valued?

Brigitte:

Do they feel like there's a, you know, a, a sort of a.

Brigitte:

A conversational channel where they can, um, grapple with some of the,

Brigitte:

the issues that they're facing.

Brigitte:

So those organizations that have got that, that actually understand, well,

Brigitte:

this is, this is where we need to be to support our people with this change,

Brigitte:

then, you know, you're gonna see some fantastic results and, and, um.

Brigitte:

And it's exciting, you know, it's really exciting.

Brigitte:

Hopefully it gives you more time to write children's books, Johannn.

Brigitte:

Well,

Johann:

you know, it's, it's, it's actually my first one and, um.

Johann:

You know, I'm so passionate.

Johann:

I've got another book that I'm gonna be writing an adults

Johann:

book actually in, in August.

Johann:

Um, sure.

Johann:

About mental frameworks, so, fantastic.

Johann:

I can't wait.

Johann:

So yeah, may, maybe it'll give me more time, but, um, we'll see what happens.

Anthony:

I think that's the interesting thing about change.

Anthony:

And just to wrap up the, uh, the conversation and is that.

Anthony:

Uh, it does give you more time to do different things.

Anthony:

The question is, is what are you filling that up with, isn't it?

Anthony:

It's, it's, uh, the, the rate of change is such that there's an expectation

Anthony:

that you will respond quicker.

Anthony:

I mean, I had a, uh, exchange some messages last night with a, uh, uh, with

Anthony:

a client who was like, well, how can we speed things up a little bit further?

Anthony:

Can we instead of move away from email and can we use Telegram?

Anthony:

Can we use WhatsApp?

Anthony:

The, the implication with some of those things are that you get in contact with

Anthony:

people out of hours as well and trying to.

Anthony:

And so it is, technology is pushing those boundaries and the speed of change

Anthony:

and the availability, and it's how you actually blend somewhere to find

Anthony:

the time to what you should be doing.

Anthony:

And I think that's the, that's the, the important thing is, is what you

Anthony:

should be doing is important as creating that creativity in the workplace,

Anthony:

uh, in order to be able to, uh.

Anthony:

Promote some innovations and things that moving forward.

Anthony:

Uh, so, so perhaps just get your thoughts on both of, on, on that.

Anthony:

Just to wrap things up.

Anthony:

Uh, Johann, what, what's, um,

Johann:

um, so look, humans are very intelligent creatures.

Johann:

Um, we'll always survive different, um, errors, so.

Johann:

I think those who are scared, if you're watching this about ai, embrace it.

Johann:

Um, you know, if you look at history, always look at history.

Johann:

We've went through massive changes in different kind of times, and those times

Johann:

would make people scared that things are gonna change, their jobs are gonna be

Johann:

replaced, but we're evolving human beings.

Johann:

Um, and you know, I believe if we've made ai, um, we're intelligent

Johann:

enough to evolve above that too.

Johann:

So we just gotta believe that we can.

Johann:

And.

Johann:

Not be disrupted by those things and focus on what we can control

Johann:

and not what we can't control as well, I think is a big thing.

Anthony:

Brigitte, how do, how do you respond?

Anthony:

Just to wrap things up here.

Brigitte:

Yeah.

Brigitte:

I think, um, it's a, it's, uh, exciting times.

Brigitte:

Um, staying curious is really, I think, my key message for, for

Brigitte:

organizations and those that are seeking to, to sort of have, as I

Brigitte:

said, this sustainable leadership.

Brigitte:

How do I stay in for the long term while, you know, partnering, partnering with ai.

Brigitte:

Uh, upskilling learning as much as you can.

Brigitte:

Um, but remembering that it's the quality of your thinking, which you

Brigitte:

know, is gonna make a big difference to, and, and make you irreplaceable

Brigitte:

when it comes to high performing teams.

Brigitte:

And.

Brigitte:

Organizations that, that you wanna be a part of, you know, moving forward.

Brigitte:

Um, so yeah, I, I, I think it's exciting times.

Brigitte:

I think I just wanted to say thank you for the conversation because,

Brigitte:

you know, looking at it from the different perspectives, certainly

Brigitte:

of sales and, um, organizational leadership, it, it, um, there, there

Brigitte:

are extraordinary opportunities.

Johann:

Yeah.

Johann:

And thank you again as well.

Johann:

Um, yeah, appreciate it.

Anthony:

No, thank you both.

Anthony:

It's been a really fascinating discussion and I really appreciate it and certainly

Anthony:

two very different perspectives and some in, in some regards, but I

Anthony:

think there's very much a, a common ground here and I think that's what's

Anthony:

important and hopefully everyone listening in has got lots out of that.

Anthony:

And of course, we will include in the show notes how to get in contact with

Anthony:

both Joanne and Brigitte, uh, as well.

Anthony:

So thank you both again for being part of the program and, um.

Anthony:

We look forward to everyone, to your company on the next episode

Anthony:

of Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Brigitte:

Thank you very much.

Anthony:

Hey, thanks for listening to Biz Bites.

Anthony:

We hope you enjoyed the program.

Anthony:

Don't forget to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Anthony:

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Anthony:

where we will deliver a podcast for you and expose your brilliance.

Anthony:

To the world.

Anthony:

Contact us today for more information, details in the show notes.

Anthony:

We look forward to your company next time on Biz Bites.

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Anthony Perl

Anthony is an engagement specialist, building a great catalogue of podcasts of his own and helping others get it done for them. Anthony has spent more than 30 years building brands and growing audiences. His experience includes working in the media (2UE, 2GB, Channel Ten, among others) to working in the corporate and not-for-profit sectors, and for the last 13 years as a small business owner with CommTogether. The business covers branding to websites - all things strategic around marketing. Now podcasts have become central to his business, finding a niche in helping people publish their own, making it easy.