Unlock Business Growth: Offshoring, Advisory Services & Creating Capacity with Wayne Findlay & Mark Jenkins

Anthony Perl: 00:00:00

Unlocking business growth, offshoring advisory

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services, and creating capacity.

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That's the theme of this episode of Biz Bites for Thought Leaders,

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where we've got some very practical insights that you are going to love.

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Today we're exploring how smart businesses are creating more

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capacity and profitability.

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We're joined by Wayne Findlay from The Back Room and Mark Jenkins of the Gap.

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These two guys have been in partnership for a little while together.

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They've known each other for a long time.

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Each other's businesses have been helping one another.

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They've even got a special offer that they're gonna talk to.

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So you gotta stay tuned for that part of the episode.

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But while this conversation is gonna be particularly valuable

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for accounting professionals, there is something here for.

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Every business owner strategies to delegate effectively creating

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more time for high value work and building stronger client relationships

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that transcend price competition.

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You're gonna discover how combining offshoring with advisory services

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can transform your business model and help you achieve what Mark calls

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three freedoms, financial freedom, time freedom, and mind freedom.

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So let's dive into this episode of Biz Buys for Thought

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Leaders with Wayne and Mark.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:19

First of all, let me welcome Wayne and Mark to the program.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:22

Welcome.

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:23

Yeah, thanks Anthony.

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:25

Hi Mark.

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:25

Hey Wayne.

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:25

And thanks Anthony for having us.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:29

Absolute pleasure.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:29

Well, look, I, I think we need to kick things off and let you both introduce

Anthony Perl: 00:01:33

yourselves to the audience so they get to know a little bit about you each.

Anthony Perl: 00:01:38

So Mark, why don't you kick things off?

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:40

Yeah.

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:40

Well, one of the things that always concerns me with a podcast and being

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:44

an accountant and an introduction is.

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:46

You know, when I introduced myself to my wife and said I was an accountant,

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:49

she was quickly looking around the room for someone else to talk to.

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:52

So, um, let's just get that spoiler alert out the way.

Mark Jenkins: 00:01:56

I am a reluctant chartered accountant, had been for 30 years, uh, owned my

Mark Jenkins: 00:02:00

own firm for about 20 years, um, and probably the more interesting time, and

Mark Jenkins: 00:02:05

that was when I was doing advisory work.

Mark Jenkins: 00:02:07

Uh, I sold that firm about 11 years ago and formed the gap.

Mark Jenkins: 00:02:11

And the gap is essentially a content company to help you sell and

Mark Jenkins: 00:02:16

deliver structured advisory services to, uh, your business clients.

Mark Jenkins: 00:02:21

So we, we work with accountants, so I, I, I point fun at myself as an

Mark Jenkins: 00:02:25

accountant and, and I'll probably point some fun at a few accountants

Mark Jenkins: 00:02:28

who are listening to this as well.

Anthony Perl: 00:02:31

We would never do that on this program.

Anthony Perl: 00:02:33

Never make accountants.

Anthony Perl: 00:02:35

Uh, what about, what about you, Wayne?

Anthony Perl: 00:02:37

Do you wanna introduce yourself to everyone?

Anthony Perl: 00:02:39

Yeah.

Wayne Findlay: 00:02:40

Yeah, welcome Anthony.

Wayne Findlay: 00:02:42

Um, yeah, Wayne Finlay, another accountant.

Wayne Findlay: 00:02:44

So, but, uh, born and bred from the deep south of Tour Tap in New Zealand.

Wayne Findlay: 00:02:50

So, um, but right now in the Philippines, so it's a, a sort of

Wayne Findlay: 00:02:55

a long way from home right now.

Wayne Findlay: 00:02:57

Um, yeah, like Mark, I, I had my own ca firm.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:02

Uh, we were located in AKA New Zealand.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:05

I did that with my brother.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:07

I met Mark when we were both in the same coaching group.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:10

Actually.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:10

We had a guy that was coaching us and, uh, that was, that was good fun.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:15

Back, back in those days.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:16

We had a lot of, a lot of good times and, uh, like Mark, we sold our accounting

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:22

firm, it was probably about eight years ago, um, to focus on our business.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:27

Now, the backroom, which is an offshoring company.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:30

Based in the Philippines, and we focus on staffing for accountants across the globe.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:35

So gone for a new focus and, but still dealing with accountants

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:40

and, um, yeah, and loving it.

Anthony Perl: 00:03:42

And before we delve into some interesting topics here, am I

Anthony Perl: 00:03:46

right in saying that, uh, a lot of the, uh, there is a, there is a crossover

Anthony Perl: 00:03:51

between how you got started, Wayne and, and some of the work that you know,

Anthony Perl: 00:03:55

you were doing alongside with Mark.

Wayne Findlay: 00:03:59

Yeah, well be, I, I would have to say that we probably

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:03

couldn't do what we did, uh, you know, setting up the backroom because it, I

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:09

freed up a lot of capacity for myself.

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:12

So when, when we were, we didn't really wanna sell, but we got approached,

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:17

so we sold, but luckily we're in a position where we could free up

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:21

that time and work on the back row.

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:24

And, and that was because we used the gap.

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:27

So, um, which helped us one, get a good, you know, a good price

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:33

for, for our accounting firm.

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:34

And two, it meant that, um, you know, I had that time and capacity where I could,

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:40

um, do some added value with clients.

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:43

And we had a team offshore, which was, you know, with another outfit.

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:47

And that helped us, you know.

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:49

Do what we're doing now, basically.

Wayne Findlay: 00:04:51

So, yeah, it was a real crossover

Anthony Perl: 00:04:55

and I love that because this is, you know, ultimately business

Anthony Perl: 00:04:58

is about relationships, isn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:04:59

And you don't know where these opportunities create themselves.

Anthony Perl: 00:05:03

I, I gather, if we've had this conversation 20 years ago, you, you know,

Anthony Perl: 00:05:08

what you are doing now, probably wouldn't be something that you would've thought of.

Wayne Findlay: 00:05:13

Well, that's an interesting one.

Wayne Findlay: 00:05:15

When you talk to people, especially you know, from down home and Tori,

Wayne Findlay: 00:05:20

which is you imagine, you know, the back blocks of Australia,

Wayne Findlay: 00:05:24

this is sort of a bit like that.

Wayne Findlay: 00:05:26

Uh, you try to explain what you're doing to them and, uh, it's like, well, it's

Wayne Findlay: 00:05:32

sort of, uh, you know, mind blowing.

Wayne Findlay: 00:05:34

So, uh, it, it's certainly interesting, um,

Mark Jenkins: 00:05:38

and interesting from my perspective too.

Mark Jenkins: 00:05:40

I think what's changed as well is that, so I, I sold outta my firm in 2014 and

Mark Jenkins: 00:05:47

offshoring and outsourcing, I would say, was in its infancy, uh, in those days.

Mark Jenkins: 00:05:51

And when we started the Gap, we were.

Mark Jenkins: 00:05:53

We would have a hundred accountants in a room at a, at a masterclass,

Mark Jenkins: 00:05:57

say at Auckland, um, Auckland over towel at the airport there.

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:02

And we'd ask for a show of hands, you know, how many people

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:05

were offshoring or outsourcing.

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:07

You might get out of a hundred people, maybe 10 hands, um, going up.

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:11

And then more recently when we've been running events, you, you're getting

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:14

95 to, you know, 90, 96% of the people are, are, are offshoring or outsourcing.

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:20

And so then it's evolved from.

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:23

Offshoring and outsourcing being a, a must do.

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:28

And then it's just who's best of breed?

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:30

So then it's just a conversation about, you know, what's the

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:33

service level you can get?

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:35

How reliable are they?

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:36

How good are the people?

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:38

And, and what I love about the backroom is that the, the owners, uh, have

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:43

owned an accounting firm themselves.

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:44

So they, they have that deep subject matter expertise of, of accounting

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:50

firms and what their challenges are.

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:52

And so.

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:53

You know, just as I've in my own accounting firm was delivering advisory

Mark Jenkins: 00:06:56

services and I've got deep subject matter expertise on advisory, that's why I think

Mark Jenkins: 00:07:01

the partnership is really strong with the backroom and the gap because we do,

Mark Jenkins: 00:07:06

even though we point fun at each other for being, being accountants, we, that

Mark Jenkins: 00:07:09

that's the common ground and that's the understanding we have of our respective

Mark Jenkins: 00:07:13

client bases who are, are people that often use both our, both of our products.

Anthony Perl: 00:07:19

It is an interesting point that you raised because I know

Anthony Perl: 00:07:22

there's a lot of businesses that like this kind of concept of people

Anthony Perl: 00:07:26

working from the ground up and, and that may be true for founders that can

Anthony Perl: 00:07:29

do that, but even, I know businesses like Aldi for example, if you're going

Anthony Perl: 00:07:33

to, um, rise even up to the top levels of, of Aldi, you start by stacking.

Anthony Perl: 00:07:39

You know, stacking boxes, and you might be doing that as a temporary

Anthony Perl: 00:07:42

assignment, knowing full well that you're moving into a management role.

Anthony Perl: 00:07:45

But, you know, getting your hands dirty and under truly understanding

Anthony Perl: 00:07:50

the niche is incredibly important.

Anthony Perl: 00:07:52

And I imagine not something you could be doing particularly in the advisory space,

Anthony Perl: 00:07:56

mark, unless you really understood that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:07:58

Yeah.

Mark Jenkins: 00:07:59

And look, it goes, it goes the same for offshoring as well.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:03

If you, if you don't understand the problems and challenges

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:07

that accountants face, you know.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:09

Resourcing is a massive, massive pro problem.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:12

I mean, if you google the, the world's most boring jobs, I think accounting

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:16

comes up at number three or, or something in the, in the top five anyway.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:20

And so let's face it, it's not a, it's not a desirable industry.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:23

And so we've got a shortage of people in New Zealand and Australia

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:27

of uk, um, who are, are not, not wanting to do this sort of work.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:34

And yet in the Philippines, you've got.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:36

An abundance of people who are training, um, in accounting.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:39

And so it's a, it's a great opportunity for both, uh, re solving the resource

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:45

problem, but also demonstrating what you do with that capacity that

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:50

you create when you do offshore.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:53

And, and the, the work's just so much more fun.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:55

It's so much more rewarding as well.

Mark Jenkins: 00:08:57

So yeah, it's a, it's an interesting time to be in accounting.

Mark Jenkins: 00:09:01

There's a lot, a lot going on and, uh, you know, offshoring and advisory are.

Mark Jenkins: 00:09:05

Uh, I describe it like peas and carrots on their way in, not on their way out.

Anthony Perl: 00:09:12

So, so when that brings the question then, I mean,

Anthony Perl: 00:09:14

you know, there's one hand you saying it's, we're saying here that

Anthony Perl: 00:09:17

it's a, a boring job, but clearly there's people, I imagine that that.

Anthony Perl: 00:09:21

Love the boring job.

Anthony Perl: 00:09:22

Uh, that's probably one part and I'm probably being a bit

Anthony Perl: 00:09:25

unfair in classifying it as that.

Anthony Perl: 00:09:27

Uh, and, but the second part is really this, you know, there's an abundance

Anthony Perl: 00:09:31

of talent that's in the Philippines as well, and I think there's probably

Anthony Perl: 00:09:35

a misconception, uh, that that talent isn't as qualified as it might be if

Anthony Perl: 00:09:40

they had, you know, studied in Australia.

Anthony Perl: 00:09:42

But that's not the case, is it?

Wayne Findlay: 00:09:45

No, it's not the case.

Wayne Findlay: 00:09:47

I think it is accounting's, a four year degree here in the Philippines.

Wayne Findlay: 00:09:52

And then as well as that, you need to do your internships along the way.

Wayne Findlay: 00:09:56

So they're actually doing hands-on work, um, as they're learning.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:01

And, uh, in New Zealand, you know, I think it's a four year degree now, but it used

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:06

to be a three year degree when I did it.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:08

So, um, but.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:11

I always compare the, the, the hours in a week that you study.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:15

Like I remember when I was in Dunedin, I, I think the second

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:19

year I had 13 lectures a week.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:22

So, um, then I compare it with the students here.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:26

It's a, it's a 40 hour week plus they, they flo them here at the university.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:33

They, and then they have all these other things they have to do as well.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:36

So the learning is a lot more, it's a lot harder.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:41

There's a lot more regular testing.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:43

Um, and the students, uh, you know.

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:47

I don't know, but there's, there's a lot of people who want to become an

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:49

accountant, and I think it's, well, it is, it's because of the BPO industries

Wayne Findlay: 00:10:54

like us, because the average wage that we pay accountants, you know, compared

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:00

to other industries, is a lot higher.

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:02

So the, the average wage is going up all the time as well.

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:06

Well, we're seeing a lot of candidates there, Kelly?

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:08

Yeah.

Anthony Perl: 00:11:09

For those that might not be familiar with the term BPO,

Anthony Perl: 00:11:12

do you wanna just explain that?

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:14

Yeah, yeah.

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:15

Well, yeah.

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:16

We, we we're actually a KPO to be really technical, but A BPO was a,

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:21

a business process outsourcing and a KPO was knowledge process outsourcing.

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:27

So we're, we're processing knowledge and sharing that out.

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:30

So we're a service, that's what we're providing.

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:34

Um.

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:35

So, yeah, the, where I am in Clark, there's, uh, there's a lot of BPOs,

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:40

um, but there's, there's very few that specialize in accounting.

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:44

So, and I think, uh, that, that puts us up on a pedestal, especially, you know, being

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:50

able to provide training and also being able to get the, the top-notch students.

Wayne Findlay: 00:11:55

We, we tend to get the pick of the bunch as far as grads, uh,

Wayne Findlay: 00:12:00

come and wanna work for us.

Anthony Perl: 00:12:02

I, I wanted to just, um, unpack a few things with what you

Anthony Perl: 00:12:07

are both doing, because starting with Newmark in terms of advisory, because

Anthony Perl: 00:12:12

this term advisory, which I, which I love, when I was sort of started

Anthony Perl: 00:12:15

thinking about it going, because a lot of people might use the term consulting.

Anthony Perl: 00:12:20

And consulting carries a lot of negative baggage is a general word, whereas

Anthony Perl: 00:12:24

advisory tends to be a, a more positive use term, but it is more common perhaps

Anthony Perl: 00:12:28

in the accounting side of things.

Anthony Perl: 00:12:30

So tell me a little bit about what that is and why that is becoming such an

Anthony Perl: 00:12:34

important part of accounting practices.

Mark Jenkins: 00:12:37

Yeah, it's a great question, Anthony.

Mark Jenkins: 00:12:38

And I'm, I'm at risk of getting up on a soapbox here and, um, talking about the

Mark Jenkins: 00:12:42

ills of the, um, the word advisory because it's actually been completely overused.

Mark Jenkins: 00:12:49

Um, and.

Mark Jenkins: 00:12:51

I'm a, I'm a, a native speaker of account ease and, um, gape as

Mark Jenkins: 00:12:56

well, the language of the Gap.

Mark Jenkins: 00:12:57

Um, and I really don't like the term advisory because really what advisory

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:02

is in, in my definition, it's, it's closer to business development.

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:07

It's, uh, and if you define business development, if you look at Forbes, their

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:11

definition of, uh, business development is providing enduring value from, uh,

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:16

product services and relationships.

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:19

So for me that is a far better definition, business development services.

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:24

But unfortunately, the people who didn't like the word salesperson have coined

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:29

the term business development manager.

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:31

And so when you say business development, it sounds like sales

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:35

and accountants don't like selling.

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:37

They really, um, they really don't like it at all.

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:40

And so I suspect that the word advisory and business advisory services, I mean.

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:47

I'm talking 35 years ago in one, in one of the big four firms that

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:50

I worked in, I was in the business advisory services, the BS division.

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:55

There was nothing advisory going on there at all.

Mark Jenkins: 00:13:58

We were, we were producing sets of financial statements and telling clients

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:01

how much profit they'd made and how much tax they'd pay and hope they didn't ask

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:05

us what the accounting fees have been.

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:07

But, so I think consulting is not the right term either because consulting is.

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:14

If you take the cynical view, it's somebody who takes your watch

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:17

off you so they can tell you what the time is, but there's someone

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:21

you pay to do a piece of work.

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:23

Now you can't as a, as a, an advisor, you can't do a business plan for a client.

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:30

Business advisory services, in my definition, if we go down that line of

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:34

providing enduring value, working side by side with a client to help them.

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:40

Achieve their goals, overcome their problems and challenges.

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:43

Things like business planning and coaching and cashflow and profit improvement work.

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:48

You're not there to advise them what to put in their business plan.

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:50

You're there to facilitate and ask questions and help them create the time

Mark Jenkins: 00:14:55

and the space, uh, to create that plan, and then to hold them to account and to

Mark Jenkins: 00:15:00

report against that, how they're going.

Mark Jenkins: 00:15:02

So, so from my perspective.

Mark Jenkins: 00:15:05

Does sound like a sound soapbox?

Mark Jenkins: 00:15:06

I'd love to change the, the, the word, word advisory.

Mark Jenkins: 00:15:10

I don't think I'm gonna, I'm swimming against the tide, but my

Mark Jenkins: 00:15:13

definition of advisory is more in the line of coaching or mentoring.

Mark Jenkins: 00:15:18

Where you are asking questions, you are facilitating, planning, and, and

Mark Jenkins: 00:15:24

business improvement for your clients.

Anthony Perl: 00:15:26

We

Mark Jenkins: 00:15:26

hope

Anthony Perl: 00:15:26

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Anthony Perl: 00:15:30

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Anthony Perl: 00:15:33

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Anthony Perl: 00:15:37

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Anthony Perl: 00:15:38

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Anthony Perl: 00:15:44

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Anthony Perl: 00:16:03

in the show notes below.

Anthony Perl: 00:16:05

Now back to Biz Bites.

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:07

So from my perspective.

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:09

Does sound like a soap box.

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:11

I'd love to change the, the, the word word advisory.

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:14

I don't think I'm gonna, I'm swimming against the tide, but my

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:17

definition of advisory is more in the line of coaching or mentoring,

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:23

where you are asking questions.

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:25

You are facilitating planning and, and business improvement for your clients.

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:30

You are achieving synergy by working side by side with them to get a

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:34

result that's better than what they could achieve on their own.

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:37

And you might use some technology to do that, but mostly it's about the

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:41

human connection, the conversations you're having, the questions you're

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:45

asking, and the dedicated time that you and the client are putting

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:49

together to improve their business.

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:51

So it's a very long answer to what, what advisory means in my world.

Mark Jenkins: 00:16:56

But if we look at specific services, I'm talking business planning,

Mark Jenkins: 00:17:00

accountability, coaching, forecasting, management reporting, uh, and, and

Mark Jenkins: 00:17:07

really holding a client to account to achieve the goals that they want.

Mark Jenkins: 00:17:11

So first of all, you have to get 'em to define what they are, and then

Mark Jenkins: 00:17:13

you have to help 'em to get there.

Mark Jenkins: 00:17:15

So that's a long, long explanation of what advisory is.

Anthony Perl: 00:17:19

No, no, it's, and I think it's really important to get it out

Anthony Perl: 00:17:21

there and it really is interesting, we could go on for hours about the, uh,

Anthony Perl: 00:17:24

about the right terminology to use.

Anthony Perl: 00:17:26

And you know, the trouble is, is often one term gets hijacked

Anthony Perl: 00:17:30

very quickly and becomes trendy and means something completely

Anthony Perl: 00:17:32

different to what it was intended.

Wayne Findlay: 00:17:35

Can just add there, Anthony as well, because I know

Wayne Findlay: 00:17:38

from the accounting perspective, when Scott and I first started.

Wayne Findlay: 00:17:42

You know, a lot of, we were a bit scared of, you know, can we do this

Wayne Findlay: 00:17:46

business advisor, how, you know, but, uh, the gap certainly helped

Wayne Findlay: 00:17:50

hold our hands with it because what they had made it a lot easier.

Wayne Findlay: 00:17:55

Um.

Wayne Findlay: 00:17:56

And, and I think there's a perspective out there that a lot

Wayne Findlay: 00:17:59

of accountants think advisory.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:01

You need to, you know, have, have, you know, high knowledge or you

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:04

need to be special in certain areas.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:07

But for what we did with our clients was pretty basic.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:12

It was simple.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:14

It was helping our clients.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:16

It was what they wanted.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:18

It was what they understood, which is what we understood.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:21

So we didn't complicate things.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:23

Uh, and it certainly paid dividends for us.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:25

So, yeah.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:28

Uh, a hundred percent behind what Mark was saying there.

Wayne Findlay: 00:18:30

And,

Anthony Perl: 00:18:30

and I imagine, mark, that this area is becoming more and

Anthony Perl: 00:18:32

more important, particularly as there are tools that are now making some

Anthony Perl: 00:18:36

of the other tasks a little bit more, um, easier and quicker to support.

Anthony Perl: 00:18:41

So this, you know, the differentiator between accounting firms.

Anthony Perl: 00:18:46

Has to be some level of advisory where traditionally the contact from accounting

Anthony Perl: 00:18:52

firms would've been with a client, um, you know, during BS if that's what's

Anthony Perl: 00:18:57

needed, and at least once a year for tax.

Anthony Perl: 00:18:59

So, fairly negative, generally speaking, uh, ways of engaging with it, but.

Anthony Perl: 00:19:05

There's a need to move out of that space now.

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:07

Yeah.

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:07

Look, I think, and, and there's been a lot of talk about this for 20,

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:11

maybe 30 years, about what, what, what, what will happen to accounting.

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:15

I think someone, Wayne was about four or five years ago, there

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:19

was some prediction that'd be 19 accountants in New Zealand by 2030.

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:23

Some ridiculous, uh, situation.

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:26

Of course that's not gonna be the case.

Wayne Findlay: 00:19:28

Technology.

Wayne Findlay: 00:19:30

And now there's ai, you know, and we're all it, it says we're all going.

Wayne Findlay: 00:19:33

But I don't think that's a situation 'cause people want to deal with

Wayne Findlay: 00:19:38

people, especially in when it's dealing with finances and money,

Wayne Findlay: 00:19:41

um, the old trusted advisor.

Wayne Findlay: 00:19:43

So, absolutely.

Wayne Findlay: 00:19:44

So I think,

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:45

so I think from my perspective, we can talk about

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:48

technology, that's the enabler.

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:49

We can talk about offshoring as the capacity creator.

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:54

And then it's like, okay, so you've got all this technology

Mark Jenkins: 00:19:58

and you've got offshoring in place, you've created capacity.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:01

So what will you do now?

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:04

And if you can spend more time with your clients.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:08

Even if you just start asking them questions and you start meeting with

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:12

them to talk about their goals and their problems and challenges, and

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:16

you start solving their problems and challenges in the form of a service

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:19

that you offer them that's structured and clear so that you know what to do.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:24

You know?

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:24

Okay, I'm gonna send some pre-work.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:26

I'm going to run an, I've got an agenda I'm gonna follow, I've got,

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:30

I've got a template I'm gonna use.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:31

I've got some AI tools that are gonna support me to do that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:35

But first and foremost, I'm gonna have a conversation with a client,

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:39

meet them where they are, talk language, that they understand

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:43

the way Wayne's talking as well.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:44

Technology cannot do that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:47

It'll never be able to do that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:48

And so advisory to me is just the, it's the filler for the

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:54

cr, the space that you create.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:57

By offshoring or using technology.

Mark Jenkins: 00:20:59

Now, you can't, most accountants I talked to, I did a webinar a couple

Mark Jenkins: 00:21:03

of hours ago and I asked bb you know, what are their challenges?

Mark Jenkins: 00:21:05

And they'll say, we've got no time.

Mark Jenkins: 00:21:06

We've got no time.

Mark Jenkins: 00:21:08

And so everyone's gr grappling with how do we create more capacity?

Mark Jenkins: 00:21:12

Offshoring is the best way to create capacity.

Mark Jenkins: 00:21:15

And you can offshore at multiple levels, you know, with The Back

Mark Jenkins: 00:21:18

Room, now you've got skills right the way through the, through the chain.

Mark Jenkins: 00:21:22

Wayne, and perhaps you could talk about this, um, as well.

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:25

Well, yeah.

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:26

Well, yeah, we'll go.

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:28

We're gonna have another webinar, aren't we?

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:29

Mark, where we're gonna cover off.

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:31

Um, you know, and go into more detail on this as well.

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:34

But some of the key things, you don't just need accountants.

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:38

You, you've, you, you have admin, marketing, uh.

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:43

Uh, VAs EAs.

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:45

So there's, there's lots of resources you can get from offshore

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:49

that will give you that time.

Wayne Findlay: 00:21:51

So, um, yeah, I think

Anthony Perl: 00:21:52

one of the best books that I've read in recent

Anthony Perl: 00:21:55

years is buying Back Your Time.

Anthony Perl: 00:21:57

Uh, the reason why you hire other people, uh, to, to do that, to create more space

Anthony Perl: 00:22:03

for the areas that not only you love doing, but hopefully are more profitable.

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:08

And I think, I think, I think the point there is that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:12

Capacity doesn't equal profit.

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:14

So if you create more capacity by offshoring, you're only gonna make more

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:20

profit if you use that capacity that you've created to sell more services or

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:27

to generate more revenue at the same time.

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:31

If you don't do that, then if you don't have those

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:34

conversations with clients, then.

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:36

There's a, my concern is there's a real race to the bottom because

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:40

margins will slip over time.

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:42

Expectations of clients will be, oh, this is a transactional relationship.

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:47

And I know, um, Intuit released some, some research of about 500 accounting

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:52

firms, uh, in Australia and 500 small, medium sized business owners,

Mark Jenkins: 00:22:58

and one in three of those business clients saw their relationship with

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:02

their accountant as transactional.

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:05

Well, that's a real worry.

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:06

Only 16% of those, uh, those business clients considered they had a strategic

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:12

partnership with their clients.

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:15

84% of the people who considered they had a strategic partnership with

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:19

their accountants considered they got immense value from their accountant.

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:23

So if you think about the clients that Wayne's talking about, where you've

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:27

got a a deep connection, they're not going to shop around based on price.

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:32

They're gonna work with you based on the relationship.

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:35

So how do you get to work with them more?

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:39

You need a system and a process to do that, and you need to offshore to

Mark Jenkins: 00:23:42

create the capacity to be able to do it.

Anthony Perl: 00:23:46

How much of a challenge is it though, in convincing accountants

Anthony Perl: 00:23:50

that are used to having their hands dirty and you know, in terms of

Anthony Perl: 00:23:53

getting into the numbers and doing all of those things that they might do?

Anthony Perl: 00:23:58

To step away from that and to let that part go so that they

Anthony Perl: 00:24:01

can focus on, on this other area.

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:05

That's, that's a big thing.

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:07

And, and that's something that I, I struggled with for a start, but

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:12

it, I actually got the help of our friend, um, Rob, who helped us.

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:17

Uh, mark, remember he had something about wearing the hats,

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:20

your red and your black hat.

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:22

So look at the tasks that you were doing and, and one would be a Red Hat, I forget.

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:28

One was for admin and one was where you're productive.

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:31

And so both Scott and I in the accounting firm, we went through and we listed down

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:36

everything that we did that we shouldn't be doing, and we looked at delegating it.

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:41

And so being able to delegate.

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:45

Is very important and it's, it's one of the things that accountants struggle

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:50

the most with is being able to delegate.

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:52

So we, we delegated and we set up our own offshoring business and,

Wayne Findlay: 00:24:57

uh, you know, you wouldn't be able to do that if, if we couldn't.

Wayne Findlay: 00:25:02

And I had a real,

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:03

um, I had a real fear myself about delegating.

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:06

So I, I delegated all of the annual accounts review meetings to my, to my

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:11

senior team and, um, and they the ones who wanted to there, you know, Anthony, you're

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:16

right, some people love to just work with the numbers, and that's just fine.

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:20

There aren't as many of those people as there used to be, and

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:23

the ones coming through the next generation of leaders don't want that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:26

So for those who do want that, that's just fine.

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:29

But tho those who want the opportunity, I, I had this real fear about delegating

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:33

'cause I thought, oh, what will my clients think the relationship is with me?

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:37

You know?

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:37

And so, but what I found was that they really enjoyed it.

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:41

The team members enjoyed the work, the clients enjoyed having

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:44

a second point of contact.

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:46

'cause they said, oh, it's so much easier for me to get hold

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:48

of your team than it is for you.

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:50

You're always in new things.

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:51

And I was able to say, look.

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:53

I'm not leaving, I'm, I'm here to do the work that I'm best at, which is

Mark Jenkins: 00:25:58

not your annual accounts and your tax.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:00

I don't do that work anymore.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:02

So the best people to do that and to go through your accounts are the people that

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:05

have done that work and the best people.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:09

Uh, the, the best way to work with me is on, on a more of a strategic level.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:13

So if you wanna work with me on a strategic level, this is the sort of work

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:16

that I'm freeing up my capacity to do.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:19

I lost one client, um, one client left.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:21

He, no, no, no.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:22

I, yeah, I came here because I wanted you to be doing my GSD or my bass.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:26

I wanted you to be doing my annual accounts.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:29

And I said, well, look, his name was Simon.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:31

I said, Simon, look, this, this is not going to work.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:34

And I recommended him to a, a one person operation down the road

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:38

and he was really happy with that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:39

Both the accountant and the client were really happy with,

Mark Jenkins: 00:26:42

and I was happy with that

Wayne Findlay: 00:26:43

too.

Wayne Findlay: 00:26:45

W we did the same thing, mark, uh, it, and I would always position it, you

Wayne Findlay: 00:26:50

know, say Anna, who was a, a senior accountant, I'd say, oh, Anna, Anna's

Wayne Findlay: 00:26:55

better than this than me, to be honest.

Wayne Findlay: 00:26:57

She knows more about tax and, um, you know how the compliance will fit.

Wayne Findlay: 00:27:03

You meet with her, do the end of year, the tax 'cause that's history.

Wayne Findlay: 00:27:07

That's looking backwards.

Wayne Findlay: 00:27:09

And then I'm gonna schedule a meeting with you in a week's time,

Wayne Findlay: 00:27:12

and then we're gonna go look forward and we can plan for next year.

Wayne Findlay: 00:27:17

We can do our budgets and forecasts, we can look at ways to improve profitability.

Wayne Findlay: 00:27:23

And that was the way we positioned it in our accounting firm, and

Wayne Findlay: 00:27:26

that that worked really well.

Anthony Perl: 00:27:28

Yeah, I, I, you know, it's a, it's a difficult thing when

Anthony Perl: 00:27:31

you have some clients that you need to move on, but it is also an important

Anthony Perl: 00:27:36

thing for both sides of the fence.

Anthony Perl: 00:27:37

'cause there's nothing worse than dealing with people where, where you each party

Anthony Perl: 00:27:41

knows that you're not the right fit.

Anthony Perl: 00:27:43

And, uh, you know, that's an important thing.

Anthony Perl: 00:27:45

People getting to know you.

Anthony Perl: 00:27:47

And which goes back to the advisory stuff, doesn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:27:49

It's, it's that opportunity to actually have.

Anthony Perl: 00:27:52

More lengthy, detailed conversations and be more proactive with those

Anthony Perl: 00:27:57

conversations rather than waiting for, um, you know, isn't it tax time?

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:04

Well, it's a win-win as well, Anthony, because, uh, you know,

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:09

your accountants that are more senior, they, they always want, you know, pay

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:13

rises and you want to pay them more.

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:15

The trouble is if you've given them work at a lower level.

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:18

You know, you can't justify the pay rises.

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:21

As, as if they were doing high value work client meetings, then it's a win-win.

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:27

You can pay them more because you can actually charge out more.

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:30

The client is, is feeling like they're helping more, so they

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:34

don't mind paying that extra bit.

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:37

So, uh, I see it as a win-win by delegating.

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:40

So, and the other thing was, you know, you're, you're helping

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:44

grow that person as well.

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:46

So, uh, the fear was can they handle that type of work?

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:50

But, you know, you, you, we, we didn't struggle.

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:53

We, we, we found out by giving them extra responsibilities, the senior team

Wayne Findlay: 00:28:58

took that on board and grew with it.

Wayne Findlay: 00:29:00

So, um.

Wayne Findlay: 00:29:02

Yeah, it, it, it was a win-win site scenario.

Anthony Perl: 00:29:06

Something else I wanted to explore that you guys both touched

Anthony Perl: 00:29:08

on in your introductions that I think is important for any business owner

Anthony Perl: 00:29:12

listening in to understand is this concept of how you solve the businesses.

Anthony Perl: 00:29:16

And so, because, because I'm interested on a couple of levels.

Anthony Perl: 00:29:19

One is this, obviously this idea that you're building a business in

Anthony Perl: 00:29:24

Indeed to be able to exit it, but also how soon you had the vision.

Anthony Perl: 00:29:30

For what you wanted to do next?

Anthony Perl: 00:29:32

Was that part of the why you were exiting or was, did the exiting happen first?

Anthony Perl: 00:29:37

Um, you know, mark, I throw to you first.

Anthony Perl: 00:29:39

What, what was the situation for you?

Mark Jenkins: 00:29:41

Yeah, so I've, um, resigned from the accounting industry,

Mark Jenkins: 00:29:46

I think four times in my career.

Mark Jenkins: 00:29:48

Um, after starting in the big four, I, I got a bit burnt out and went

Mark Jenkins: 00:29:51

and ran a ski chalet in, in France and said, that's the end of it.

Mark Jenkins: 00:29:55

I'm not doing accounting ever again.

Mark Jenkins: 00:29:57

Um, actually even before that, when I was in the Big Four firm,

Mark Jenkins: 00:29:59

I was in the business advisory.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:02

Division.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:02

I didn't like that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:03

And, and got out and moved into the, um, the consulting business.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:08

Couple of floors down, and then I, yeah, then I, when I came to sell my

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:13

accounting firm, I had just had enough.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:14

I, I was, I'd been doing it for 17 years.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:19

I needed a new challenge, but I didn't know what I was gonna do next.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:23

I just knew that I couldn't do this anymore.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:25

Um, and so I exited again the accounting industry and then found

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:29

myself back in, back in it again.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:31

With, um, with the gap.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:33

I didn't even believe there was a business, uh, with the gap.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:36

Um, I. I, I thought every accountant did this sort of thing, that they had

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:41

templates and, uh, flow charts and agendas and pre-work and proposals.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:47

And I thought that was what everyone had.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:49

And, and it was my co-founder, uh, the brown rig who said, and

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:53

I think there's a business here.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:54

So we, that's how the gap was formed quite by accident.

Mark Jenkins: 00:30:58

Viv was helping me with the brokering of my business, so.

Mark Jenkins: 00:31:01

I wasn't itching to do this sort of work.

Mark Jenkins: 00:31:04

Uh, I love it now.

Mark Jenkins: 00:31:05

Um, but, um, I certainly wasn't itching.

Mark Jenkins: 00:31:07

I'm not sure, Wayne, whether what you, what, what came first for you?

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:12

Yeah, well, the backroom came first and, but luckily yeah,

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:19

we'd, we'd work with the likes of you and Rob and one of the things that

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:24

we were working on was being able to, for a good business to exist.

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:29

It, it can't be relying on you.

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:32

It's gotta be able to run on itself.

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:35

And that was something that Scott and I had worked on quite a lot.

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:38

And so the, the business did work, um, you know, without us, you know,

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:43

there was some certain things, you know, from a director and board level,

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:47

uh, that we had to do, but we'd set the business up so it could run, you

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:51

know, pretty simply without us there.

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:54

And that made it quite easy for a transition.

Wayne Findlay: 00:31:57

When we got approached, um, we looked at it and said, oh yeah,

Wayne Findlay: 00:32:01

we should, because at that stage, backroom was in its infancy.

Wayne Findlay: 00:32:06

Um, I was focusing on that and Scott was focusing more on the accounting.

Wayne Findlay: 00:32:10

And then yeah, we said, oh yeah, let's sell.

Wayne Findlay: 00:32:14

Um, and we've doubled down on The Back Room and you know, I think at the time

Wayne Findlay: 00:32:20

we sold, we had close to 30 employees offshore, maybe 35, you know, and now,

Wayne Findlay: 00:32:27

today, you know, we're like close to 600.

Wayne Findlay: 00:32:30

So it's um, certainly paid off.

Anthony Perl: 00:32:33

Yeah, I mean, and, and I think it's an

Anthony Perl: 00:32:34

interesting exercise, isn't it?

Anthony Perl: 00:32:36

Because you both sort of talked about, I guess in a way kind of losing the passion

Anthony Perl: 00:32:40

for what you originally were doing, but have found that in what you are doing now.

Anthony Perl: 00:32:46

So those opportunities that presented itself found a new purpose and, and,

Anthony Perl: 00:32:51

um, and I think what's intriguing for me, mark, with yours or both of

Anthony Perl: 00:32:54

you really, is that you've not only found a purpose for your own selves,

Anthony Perl: 00:32:59

but what you're actually doing is it's helping drive that for others.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:03

Yeah, look, it, it, I mean our, our purpose statement

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:06

is, um, you know, far, far simple and profitable advisory.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:11

And so we are, we are wanting it to be easier, but actually the reason

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:15

behind that is that we want more accountants to be helping more small,

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:19

medium sized business owners to.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:21

Achieve the goals that they want.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:23

Um, and this is something that I've always been passionate about.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:26

Uh, and for years I always dreamed that's what an accountant would do.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:30

And then I found out what they did was actually nothing like that at all.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:33

Um, I used to feel like a bit of a leech.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:35

I'd go down through the, the profit and loss statement of

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:38

a client set of accounts and.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:40

Try and skip past the accounting fees line because I was worried about

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:43

the, you know, what the account, what the client might say about

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:46

how high the accounting fees were.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:47

And I thought, I'm just taking a little bit of their profits, um,

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:50

and not really adding any value.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:52

So I had a real driver to want to help more.

Mark Jenkins: 00:33:55

Um, and to, I mean, on the back of my business card I had make more money, pay

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:00

less tax, and have a great lifestyle.

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:02

'cause that was the, the passion I had was to help my clients to achieve that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:06

And the gap community is full of people who feel the same way, who want that

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:11

for themselves and for their clients.

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:14

And when, when accountants realize that by giving those outcomes to their

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:18

clients, we talk about the three freedoms, financial time, and mind freedom.

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:23

If you help your clients to achieve those freedoms, then they in turn

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:27

will reward you and you'll achieve those freedoms yourself so long as

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:32

you offshore embrace technology.

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:35

And open up those client relationships to, at the level

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:39

that your clients really want.

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:41

Um, and so it's a, it's a, it's a virtuous, virtuous circle.

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:45

It's, it's really nice to see, and we get lovely anecdotes from members all the time

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:50

who share, you know, what their clients have said, how it's been life changing

Mark Jenkins: 00:34:54

for them, and that, that's what really gets me excited about coming back to work.

Anthony Perl: 00:34:59

And I imagine, Wayne, there's, there's a, a fair amount of

Anthony Perl: 00:35:02

people that, uh, are a bit nervous, particularly the first time that they

Anthony Perl: 00:35:06

might be using an offshoring, and then by you demonstrating what the ability is.

Anthony Perl: 00:35:12

I, I imagine that they keep coming back for more and, and, and

Anthony Perl: 00:35:15

understand the value of what's, what the services did you offer.

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:20

Yeah, it like to, to hiring your first employee

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:23

offshore is your hardest.

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:25

Um, once you have your first employee, your second, third,

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:29

fourth is so much easier.

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:32

And what, what I say is it gives accounting firm options.

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:36

So if someone leaves in the accounting firm in New Zealand or Australia, if

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:41

you've got a team offshore, it gives you an option to say, well, hey, do I

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:45

replace this role onshore or offshore?

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:48

So it, it, it means that, um, mark talked about, you know, the

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:52

shortage of accountants and well even, uh, bookkeepers globally.

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:58

There's such a big shortage.

Wayne Findlay: 00:35:59

It just means you have that option, you know.

Wayne Findlay: 00:36:02

And then the other thing is it frees you up that you can then, um, you

Wayne Findlay: 00:36:07

know, you could add more people as more you can scale quicker.

Wayne Findlay: 00:36:11

You know, there's so many benefits to, to offshoring.

Wayne Findlay: 00:36:15

And it gives you that ability, like Mark talked about the three freedoms.

Wayne Findlay: 00:36:21

So if you can create that capacity, then you can fill that time with, maybe it is

Wayne Findlay: 00:36:27

more time on the golf course or, or maybe it's doing more, uh, advisory type work.

Wayne Findlay: 00:36:34

And then that frees up your mind less stress.

Wayne Findlay: 00:36:36

So I think it all.

Wayne Findlay: 00:36:38

You know, it does tie it all together.

Anthony Perl: 00:36:40

I, I'd love to get both of your assessments as well as where the

Anthony Perl: 00:36:44

industry is going, because, you know, the accounting industry is not different to.

Anthony Perl: 00:36:49

A lot of other spaces as well.

Anthony Perl: 00:36:51

So I think that's important for people who are listening in to, to understand that.

Anthony Perl: 00:36:55

But technology has played a significant role in the accounting space and we think

Anthony Perl: 00:37:00

of, you know, the likes of Xero, for example, being cloud-based software and

Anthony Perl: 00:37:04

much more accessible, uh, particularly to.

Anthony Perl: 00:37:06

Part, you know, to small businesses who may have limited knowledge of how to do

Anthony Perl: 00:37:11

things and, and interacting that with, with accountants, that's just one example

Anthony Perl: 00:37:16

of a whole myriad of technologies that come into play and a changing the way

Anthony Perl: 00:37:21

the whole space is operating, isn't it?

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:27

Yeah.

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:28

Well, I, I see.

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:29

The big thing at the moment is AI and how that will impact, and from what I've

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:34

seen in talking to accounting firms.

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:36

You know, there hasn't been a big impact yet.

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:40

And that's not to say there will be in a few years time, but I do

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:45

think it will be more technology.

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:46

It will just mean we'll be able to do things a lot easier, a lot

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:51

better, will be more efficient.

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:53

Um, I, I think, uh, QuickBooks or Intuit in the us.

Wayne Findlay: 00:37:59

Have started to release some products that help tax, for instance,

Wayne Findlay: 00:38:03

doing tax in the US a lot simpler.

Wayne Findlay: 00:38:05

So there is some efficiencies there and so there will be, uh, some changes

Wayne Findlay: 00:38:11

in the future, but accountants are notoriously slow adopters of technology.

Wayne Findlay: 00:38:18

Then you've got your clients who also that work with accountants, um.

Wayne Findlay: 00:38:24

You know, sometimes are risk averse as far as what technology.

Wayne Findlay: 00:38:28

So, uh, certainly an interesting landscape over the next, um, three years perhaps.

Wayne Findlay: 00:38:34

How do you say it?

Wayne Findlay: 00:38:35

Yeah.

Wayne Findlay: 00:38:35

It's

Mark Jenkins: 00:38:35

interesting.

Mark Jenkins: 00:38:36

I, is it Jeff more crossing the chasm?

Mark Jenkins: 00:38:38

You know, the, the, the change of option curve.

Mark Jenkins: 00:38:41

I think there's a. There's a, I would, I would suggest that AI and

Mark Jenkins: 00:38:46

robotic process automation is, is sitting with the technologists,

Mark Jenkins: 00:38:50

the, the two and a half percent.

Mark Jenkins: 00:38:52

Um, then we're gonna get into early adopters who are gonna going to do

Mark Jenkins: 00:38:55

this as well, that 13 point a half percent, but there's going to need

Mark Jenkins: 00:38:59

to be a lot of social proof that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:02

These technologies really work, uh, before we're gonna get that early majority, that,

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:08

that next 34% in the late majority, the next 34%, um, adopting the, um, the AI

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:15

and, and the, you know, I mean, I'm seeing a lot of AI being used anecdotally, um,

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:20

not in a particularly systemized way.

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:22

Uh, at the moment I'm seeing a lot of, um, advisory assistant type work,

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:27

you know, data lakes where, where, uh, technology can access information so you

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:33

can open a conversation with a client.

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:35

That's all great.

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:36

That's just another enabler.

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:38

It's another enabler and efficiency gain to help you to have better

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:43

relationships, better conversations, and give better service to your clients.

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:47

So it's the same as offshoring, it's the same as all the other

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:50

technology we've had in the past.

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:52

I don't believe there's ever gonna be a substitute for the human connection.

Mark Jenkins: 00:39:57

Whether the margins will stay the same on the core services.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:00

I believe the margins won't be there, um, longer term.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:04

Uh, but hey, look, people have been saying that for a long time and

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:07

people will probably look at me and say, well, I'm not like you.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:09

I'm not an early adopter.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:11

I'm not a technologist.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:12

Uh, and I don't believe you yet.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:14

Um, and that's just fine.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:15

That'll, that everyone will have their own.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:18

Their own spin on this.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:20

What, what I really want to encourage accountants to do is to just get

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:24

in touch with their clients more.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:26

Ask more questions.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:27

You know what?

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:28

What are your challenges?

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:29

Or use AI to find some insights in the client data to say, well, look, I can

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:34

see there are some challenges here.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:36

I'd love to talk to you about how we could improve your cash flow

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:39

or improve your profitability.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:41

Um, and in the webinar we're doing with the backroom, I'll be showing a

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:44

little bit about tools that you can use to enable those conversations

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:49

because again, the tool is just the enabler for a better conversation.

Mark Jenkins: 00:40:54

And if we want to avoid a race to the bottom or a, a move to generic

Mark Jenkins: 00:41:01

provision of compliance services, which ultimately means a lower price and a lower

Mark Jenkins: 00:41:06

margin, then we have to stay relevant as accountants to business clients.

Mark Jenkins: 00:41:12

And I think this is a great opportunity to increase the value of the conversation,

Mark Jenkins: 00:41:16

increase the value of the relationship, increase the value of the service,

Mark Jenkins: 00:41:21

and use technology and offshoring to.

Mark Jenkins: 00:41:23

Create the capacity even more to be able to do this work.

Wayne Findlay: 00:41:29

I think you're right because it will there be more of a

Wayne Findlay: 00:41:31

competitive landscape in the future?

Wayne Findlay: 00:41:34

Uh, with the early adopters may get more clients.

Wayne Findlay: 00:41:38

There's, there's a, the average age I think of the accountant or the principal

Wayne Findlay: 00:41:42

is, is pretty high in New Zealand, Australia, it's getting close to 60.

Wayne Findlay: 00:41:46

So, uh, there's gonna be a changing of the guard at some stage and it's how the next.

Wayne Findlay: 00:41:55

How the next people coming through embrace that technology.

Wayne Findlay: 00:41:59

Um, there will be com competition that are gonna drive down prices.

Wayne Findlay: 00:42:03

So if you want to remain competitive, you need to take all these tools up.

Wayne Findlay: 00:42:07

And one of 'em could be, you know, offshoring and

Wayne Findlay: 00:42:11

advisory, I think needs to be.

Wayne Findlay: 00:42:13

Part and pass for what you do as well.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:15

What's fascinating really is, is that when you ask the kind of

Anthony Perl: 00:42:18

question that I did, often people do jump immediately to their core activities

Anthony Perl: 00:42:22

and say, well, here's technology going to replace some of my core activities.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:26

But in fact, what a lot of the time can happen with the technology

Anthony Perl: 00:42:30

is it can enable you to do some of the peripheral activities

Anthony Perl: 00:42:34

much more efficiently and better.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:36

And one of those is engagement.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:37

Uh, you know, that's, that's really a big opportunity.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:40

The tools that are available now to engage with people on a more consistent,

Anthony Perl: 00:42:45

uh, basis and, and still make it quite personal, are far better than what they

Anthony Perl: 00:42:51

were, uh, you know, many years ago.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:54

And they're improving all the time.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:55

And those things help with the advisory side of things.

Anthony Perl: 00:42:59

And of course, more of that.

Anthony Perl: 00:43:01

Being able to do more of that means, you know, happens because you've

Anthony Perl: 00:43:06

got more offshoring happening.

Anthony Perl: 00:43:07

So it's, it's a nice kind of circle of what's possible.

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:10

Mm-hmm.

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:12

One of the tools, Anthony and, and Mark mentioned the webinar that we're

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:15

hosting together in a week's time.

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:18

So, um, I'll be able to show you.

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:22

We have this growth calculator, uh, and it's a fantastic tool that we'll

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:27

be able to share as for people that attend the webinar, but it shows you.

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:32

What you can do with your firm.

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:34

Um, and at the webinar I'll showcase what Scott and I did with our firm,

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:40

Finley and Co. And how we went from a compliance driven firm to having

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:45

more advisory and an offshoring team.

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:48

And you'll see the numbers, you'll see how it changed our firm and, you

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:55

know, and how it impacted us with our, you know, evaluations as well.

Wayne Findlay: 00:43:59

So, you know, we're sort of dropping the jaws a little bit so you can see inside.

Wayne Findlay: 00:44:06

Um, the workings and get some tangible, what you can see from a

Wayne Findlay: 00:44:10

tangible point of view is, I love

Anthony Perl: 00:44:13

that.

Anthony Perl: 00:44:13

By the way, I've had a little bit of a, uh, sneak preview of what you're doing

Anthony Perl: 00:44:17

with the growth calculator and, and I don't want to put any spoils in place for,

Anthony Perl: 00:44:21

for people that they're going to join the.

Anthony Perl: 00:44:23

Webinar and webinar and we'll have details of how to, uh, to find that in the show

Anthony Perl: 00:44:28

notes, of course, for everyone listing in.

Anthony Perl: 00:44:30

And if you're listing into at a later date to this, don't worry.

Anthony Perl: 00:44:33

I'm sure there'll be other webinars in the future, so we'll make

Anthony Perl: 00:44:35

sure there's plenty of contact information there in the show notes.

Anthony Perl: 00:44:38

But what I love is the, the concept of the calculator itself that I just wanted to

Anthony Perl: 00:44:43

touch on very briefly because what you're trying to do is demonstrate a value add,

Anthony Perl: 00:44:49

uh, for people and what the impact is and.

Anthony Perl: 00:44:53

I think that's a lesson that a lot of businesses can learn in lots of

Anthony Perl: 00:44:56

different areas of business is showing how you can, you can add value and

Anthony Perl: 00:45:01

make it feel a little bit more real to the individuals that are there.

Anthony Perl: 00:45:05

So, and, and, and is, is that, you know, I imagine that was the

Anthony Perl: 00:45:08

strategic idea in the first place.

Wayne Findlay: 00:45:11

Yeah, well we, we wanted to show, um, how we did it in our

Wayne Findlay: 00:45:17

accounting firm and we look back at, at where we were, and we went through our

Wayne Findlay: 00:45:22

numbers, you know, probably, probably 10 years ago, and then up until the date

Wayne Findlay: 00:45:28

when we sold and we sort of compared them and then we put in the key drivers

Wayne Findlay: 00:45:33

of what was changing those results.

Wayne Findlay: 00:45:36

And we built the calculator around that.

Wayne Findlay: 00:45:38

And one of the key things, well you'll see that in the webinar was, was advisory,

Wayne Findlay: 00:45:43

being able to fulfill the capacity.

Wayne Findlay: 00:45:45

So yeah, you'll be able to see that in detail and we can help you

Wayne Findlay: 00:45:49

run through that sort of stuff.

Anthony Perl: 00:45:50

Just give everyone the quick brief outline what will be the

Anthony Perl: 00:45:53

webinar and uh, as, as the starting point.

Mark Jenkins: 00:45:56

Right.

Mark Jenkins: 00:45:56

So yeah, we, we are really keen to, it's, it's interesting.

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:00

Wayne's going to be talking and I'll let him share what he's

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:02

doing, but showing value to.

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:05

The accounting firm, I'm gonna be showing how accountants can show value

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:09

to their clients and so that the sale of an advisory service is a no brainer.

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:16

So that because accountants find it difficult to sell, uh, and they also

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:22

love structure and system and process.

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:24

So I'm gonna show a little tool that we use called the value gap Calculator.

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:28

Which showcases the, the power of what's possible, starting

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:33

with a set of annual accounts.

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:34

So linking this to an onboarding meeting or an annual accounts review meeting

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:39

and really changing up that strategy so that in that meeting, like Wayne

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:43

was talking about, we, you're covering the history and looking backwards.

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:47

And then in the second half of the meeting you are looking forwards,

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:50

um, using a tool that the client can see the power of what's possible.

Mark Jenkins: 00:46:55

And has the option then to engage with you in the services that will deliver

Mark Jenkins: 00:47:00

those outcomes, increase cash flow, increase profit, increase margin, increase

Mark Jenkins: 00:47:05

sales, and, and how you can do that.

Mark Jenkins: 00:47:07

So I'm really excited about that because just as, uh, the backrooms

Mark Jenkins: 00:47:11

tool is, is really easy and user friendly to use, so is ours.

Mark Jenkins: 00:47:15

Um, and we've been talking all of this podcast about.

Mark Jenkins: 00:47:18

Using technology as the enabler.

Mark Jenkins: 00:47:21

Um, and we both have great tools that are easy to use and can

Mark Jenkins: 00:47:25

really show, show great value.

Mark Jenkins: 00:47:26

But Wayne, tell us about what, what you're gonna showcase.

Wayne Findlay: 00:47:31

Yeah.

Wayne Findlay: 00:47:31

Well I think we, we put some of the wording around this webinar as one

Wayne Findlay: 00:47:34

plus one equals three, which is a great accounting sort of, there's

Wayne Findlay: 00:47:39

a joke around that too, or we, maybe we will tell that joke later.

Wayne Findlay: 00:47:42

But, um.

Wayne Findlay: 00:47:44

It's really showing how offshoring and advisory add up to a lot

Wayne Findlay: 00:47:49

more than, you know, two.

Wayne Findlay: 00:47:51

So, and in the calculator, I think that showcases that completely.

Wayne Findlay: 00:47:56

So I'm gonna take people through a, a scenario in the, uh, calculator.

Wayne Findlay: 00:48:02

Um, and we're gonna talk about really how different ways you can

Wayne Findlay: 00:48:07

and different roles you can offshore.

Wayne Findlay: 00:48:10

And then at the end of it.

Wayne Findlay: 00:48:12

With the capacity that you freed up, what sort of things you could do with

Wayne Findlay: 00:48:16

advisory and talk about the things that Scott and I did in our accounting firm

Wayne Findlay: 00:48:21

that really made some, um, huge dividends for us, uh, and really added value like,

Wayne Findlay: 00:48:27

uh, exponential value to our business.

Anthony Perl: 00:48:30

Fantastic.

Anthony Perl: 00:48:30

Well, look again, we've got all the details in the show notes about that.

Anthony Perl: 00:48:33

Just to wrap things up, a question for each of you to answer that I like to

Anthony Perl: 00:48:38

ask all of my guests, what's the ah up moment that clients have when they come

Anthony Perl: 00:48:43

to work with you that you wish more people knew they were going to have?

Anthony Perl: 00:48:46

So we gonna kick us off, mark.

Mark Jenkins: 00:48:48

I, I think it's that I don't have to sell to my clients to do advisory.

Mark Jenkins: 00:48:55

I just have to sit side by side with them and.

Mark Jenkins: 00:49:00

Understand what their goals are and what their problems and challenges

Mark Jenkins: 00:49:04

are, and to combine their expertise with mine as the accountant or person

Mark Jenkins: 00:49:11

listening yours as the accountant.

Mark Jenkins: 00:49:13

So that one plus one equals three works for for the accountant

Mark Jenkins: 00:49:18

speaking to their clients as well.

Mark Jenkins: 00:49:19

That's the aha moment.

Mark Jenkins: 00:49:21

I don't have to sell this.

Mark Jenkins: 00:49:23

My clients will be asking for it if I could just show them

Mark Jenkins: 00:49:27

the art of what's possible.

Mark Jenkins: 00:49:28

Yeah.

Anthony Perl: 00:49:30

Fantastic.

Anthony Perl: 00:49:30

And what about, what about for you, Wayne?

Wayne Findlay: 00:49:33

Yeah, well, from the offshoring perspective,

Wayne Findlay: 00:49:36

I think it's our people.

Wayne Findlay: 00:49:37

So when a client gets to experience, uh, a, a team here in the

Wayne Findlay: 00:49:42

Philippines, um, they sell themselves basically because, uh, it is just.

Wayne Findlay: 00:49:50

Uh, it's funny, I I it's just the, the mindset here in the

Wayne Findlay: 00:49:55

Philippines, the work ethos, uh, the willingness to just do beyond, go

Wayne Findlay: 00:50:01

above and beyond what they require.

Wayne Findlay: 00:50:03

So, yeah, I, I, once, once a client, once they get involved with us and our

Wayne Findlay: 00:50:10

team, yeah, they, they never look back.

Wayne Findlay: 00:50:13

They, they just, uh, keep on adding more staff.

Anthony Perl: 00:50:16

Fantastic.

Anthony Perl: 00:50:16

Look, I've really appreciated both of the insights from, from you,

Anthony Perl: 00:50:20

uh, so much to cover and so many interesting stories to tell as

Anthony Perl: 00:50:25

well that you've had along the way.

Anthony Perl: 00:50:26

So I know there's a lot of value that people are going to get out of

Anthony Perl: 00:50:29

the, uh, webinar that's coming up.

Anthony Perl: 00:50:31

So again, people pay attention to the show notes, and if you've missed it, I'm sure

Anthony Perl: 00:50:36

there's another one gonna come up as well.

Anthony Perl: 00:50:38

So it will also include.

Anthony Perl: 00:50:39

All the regular contact information, both of you.

Anthony Perl: 00:50:42

But for now, thanks so much for being part of Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Anthony Perl: 00:50:45

Uh, really appreciated you being on the show.

Mark Jenkins: 00:50:48

Yeah, thanks Anthony.

Mark Jenkins: 00:50:49

Thanks.

Mark Jenkins: 00:50:49

Yeah, thanks Anthony and Wayne.

Mark Jenkins: 00:50:50

It's great talking to you.

Anthony Perl: 00:50:52

Alright, everyone, thank you for listening in and of course, don't

Anthony Perl: 00:50:54

forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode of Biz Bites for Thought Leaders.

Anthony Perl: 00:50:58

We'll see you next time.

Anthony Perl: 00:51:00

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Anthony Perl: 00:51:02

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Anthony Perl: 00:51:03

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Anthony Perl: 00:51:07

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Anthony Perl: 00:51:11

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Anthony Perl: 00:51:16

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Anthony Perl: 00:51:22

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